Is Keen not a profitable series?

[Dynamo]

And I completely disagree with you on this!

Why.

[Lava89]

One reason that comes to my mind is company image. They aren't well known for making kids games anymore. And someone looking to buy children's games isn't going to buy one from a company that's known for making violent ones.

But then again Jimmy Neutron might be too similar to go ahead with Keen again.

The biggest lesson ID ever learned: Theres more money in violent shooters. End of.

There's a time for everything, and commander keen simply made its time. ID Software is now working on completely different titles (I can't wait to play rage) and they don't care about 2d platformers anymore, just like Epic doesn't care (bulletstorm) and pretty much no one else does.

I think I probably should have put more emphasis on non-ID companies for this topic's question. This thread doesn't really ask "why hasn't ID made a Keen game?" but more like "why haven't non-ID companies tried to pick up Keen or get the series farmed out to their studio by ID themselves?" (like it has been the case of Quake 4 or Wolfenstein and any other game that isn't a tech demo for one of their new game engines).

But thanks for the contributions! I'd say this thread has had some good discussion. Keep up the good work!

Keen won't be revived and even if it would it would most likely be of the same quality of keen GBC. (No offense to any developer etc)

End of story. Get over it.

...So, instead of bringing up this argument that has been discussed over 9000 times, get over it and go back to modding

...This is the way it is, complaining about it will not have any result, all that needs to be done is to find new games and play them.

I don't think anyone is complaining about it. This is simply a discussion on why Keen isn't profitable, because I have a deep interest in economics, marketability and profitability; which ties into why a series like Keen hasn't been picked up and I wanted to hear others' thoughts on it (being that I haven't given my own reasons yet). This isn't a funeral for TUIT.

But thanks for listing your reasons for the 9001st time

So while many people have said they don't think Keen is profitable they've never said why, or if they did it was always chocked up to "the market has changed". And as far as I know there's never been a thread dedicated to this topic; mostly just why TUIT has never been made or why Tom Hall hasn't gotten the rights back (which are perfectly interesting topics in their own right). If anything, this thread is about everyone but Tom Hall or even ID software and instead its about companies making a Keen game for financial profit. Which is something even I wouldn't like to see happen realistically, based on how most companies handle things like this. But its still interesting to dive into the factors as to why the Keen series hasn't been churned out like cheap sausage.

[Ceilick]

1) The era of 2d platformers is over, and 3d platformers are pretty much dead as well.

As wiivn pointed out and as you, Mink, and I discussed on the irc channel, it seems that even though platformers are no longer mainstream, they are continued to be made and some of them do make sufficient money to be considered profitable (although not as profitable as other game genres).

For a developer to be interested in making Keen Games, its seems they would have to not be in it for the money, but in it for the love of the genre and for the love of Keen. That's pretty limiting in who would be interested in producing Keen games, let alone whether they have the resources to do so.

I mention that I think a developer would only want to do Keen games 'for the love of keen' because, it seems, there just isn't that much potential in Keen to make it worth the trouble and/or resources of obtaining the rights. If one wants to create a platformer game, it seems that creating a new character and setting is, ultimately, easier and more profitable.

Saying that keen could be made modern just because modern mario games exist is not true

I think Tulip's point is that Mario is considered successful as a platformer that has been updated significantly (primarily visually) from its platformer origins, and that such a similar update for Keen could be equally successful.

I'd also say that while Keen GBC may have been an attempt to upgrade/evolve Keen in a similar manner as Mario games have been upgraded/evolved, it is an example of an unsuccessful upgrade.

[Scarlet]

[img]I think I agree with Tulip, that Keen could be succesful if the gameplay was succesfully updated.
[/img]

So suppose they try to make an ugly sort of 3RD hard or yorp thing.

I can see keen being like crash bendicoute - but keen will obviously be a very deformed person, not a more anatomically correct thing as in the dos games.
But then the problem is about shooting. You can jump on the yorp sure. But how do you shoot if it's in 3-D? They would probably transform the game into a first person shooter. Just doesn't seem right.

[Dynamo]

This thread doesn't really ask "why hasn't ID made a Keen game?" but more like "why haven't non-ID companies tried to pick up Keen or get the series farmed out to their studio by ID themselves?" (like it has been the case of Quake 4 or Wolfenstein and any other game that isn't a tech demo for one of their new game engines).

This is exactly the same question. If ID doesn't care about keen, 3d realms and raven software care even less. Raven has always been into shooters, anyway (and they made some VERY good ones).

I don't think anyone is complaining about it.

Maybe not in this thread, but yes, they are.

I myself would like to see a keen game but I am a realist: it won't happen.

This is simply a discussion on why Keen isn't profitable, because I have a deep interest in economics, marketability and profitability; which ties into why a series like Keen hasn't been picked up and I wanted to hear others' thoughts on it (being that I haven't given my own reasons yet). This isn't a funeral for TUIT.

The Gaming Industry nowadays mostly cares about how much realistic a game is. This is exactly why games like keen or doom are now widely ignored and have been replaced by call of duty and other stupid games that can barely be called games.

But thanks for listing your reasons for the 9001st time

But its still interesting to dive into the factors as to why the Keen series hasn't been churned out like cheap sausage.

Because no one cares about it. It did not sell nearly as well as games like Doom or Mario (and also wasn't nearly as revolutionary as these two). If it did, then you can be sure we would probably have seen other keen games.

[Roobar]

@CKeen:

1) If you say that the 2d platformers era is over you're living on mars. Actually 2010 was most probably one of the best years for platform games from veery long! New Super Mario Bros. Wii and Donkey Kong Country Returns are still in the worldwide best selling charts. Limbo - one hell of a cool game. Splosion Man - a best seller on XBLA. Super Meat Boy, Shank, VVVVVV, Sonic 4, Dark Void Zero, Shantae: Risky's Revenge, Super Scribblenauts, Kirby's Epic Yarn and others. Also, some free platformers. How could this be end of the 2d platformers era in any way? Actually it's more like reincarnation of the genre. Next year will also be great: Little Big Planet 2, Sonic 4 next episodes, Trine 2, Bionic Commando Rearmed 2, Megamen and others.

2) The gaming industry you're talking about is just about 6-7 companies that dictates the market. EA, Blizzard, Activsion, Microsoft, Ubi Soft and 2-3 others. They're the only big sharks that can put millions in a game franchises and to expect actual revenue. They don't innovate. With a few exceptions from time to time. But this part of gaming industry as it is now is in crisis. Many companies put a lot of time and money in games, which aren't selling well, but for instance, games such as Farmville and all the facebook similar games, and some others like Minecraft are actually the ones making $$$$$$$$.

3) garg. If you think like that, you shouldn't be here. Also, Iphone isn't the real deal anymore. Android is. Whatever. touch screens aren't good devices for platformers. In terms of money and gameplay, Facebook is more profitable than iphone.

Another nonsense. It appears that Epic care. Cliffy B recently said that he is looking for the right partner to bring back Jazz Jackrabbit.

"Sorry, but I don't agree at all. Saying that keen could be made modern just because modern mario games exist is not true simply because Mario is an icon of videogames while keen is not. There are gadgets, shirts, and a lot of other stuff about mario in every video game store, Mario is the symbol of the Wii itself and of videogames in general. This is why it still exists."

Nothing is impossible. Yeah, Mario is more popular blah blah. If everyone is thinking like that, there would exist only one platformer franchise - Mario. But lets see how wrong you are. Two examples. Bionic Commando - arcade game released in 1987. Bionic Commando Rearmed - released in 2008. Big success. Not many people know it, but many liked it! A sequel is in the works. Donkey Kong Country - 1994 - big success for SNES, but no sequels were made until 2010. Donkey Kong County Returns - big success. Sales almost like New Super Mario. Well, who would have thought? Mario is not "still alive" because it's popular. It's popular because almost all of the Mario games offers simple and brilliant gameplay.

And now Commander Keen. The last episodes were released back in 1992. They were big success for pc. Now, we know the game got a potential. There are many ways to improve it. The formula to recreate the game is clear. If doing it right, going for digital distribution and with a good marketing, the game will sell very well. It's only matter of will.

[Dynamo]

1) If you say that the 2d platformers era is over you're living on mars. Actually 2010 was most probably one of the best years for platform games from veery long! New Super Mario Bros. Wii and Donkey Kong Country Returns are still in the worldwide best selling charts. Limbo - one hell of a cool game. Splosion Man - a best seller on XBLA. Super Meat Boy, Shank, VVVVVV, Sonic 4, Dark Void Zero, Shantae: Risky's Revenge, Super Scribblenauts, Kirby's Epic Yarn and others. Also, some free platformers. How could this be end of the 2d platformers era in any way? Actually it's more like reincarnation of the genre. Next year will also be great: Little Big Planet 2, Sonic 4 next episodes, Trine 2, Bionic Commando Rearmed 2, Megamen and others.

So what? A lot of these games are either from long-running franchises and they are console games. I have to admit though that I haven't heard of some of these games.

My point was that while platformers used to be the dominant genre in the past, they aren't nearly as many as they were before. Compared to other genres they're now dead both in popularity and number of games. No one gives a fucl if platformers still exist, it is still a fact that the genre has made its time and has been largely replaced.

However, I have to admit I have never heard of "Splosion Man" and "Shank" and others, thanks for the heads up. I'll check them out.

2) The gaming industry you're talking about is just about 6-7 companies that dictates the market. EA, Blizzard, Activsion, Microsoft, Ubi Soft and 2-3 others. They're the only big sharks that can put millions in a game franchises and to expect actual revenue. They don't innovate. With a few exceptions from time to time. But this part of gaming industry as it is now is in crisis. Many companies put a lot of time and money in games, which aren't selling well, but for instance, games such as Farmville and all the facebook similar games, and some others like Minecraft are actually the ones making $$$$$$$$.

In crisis? The only indie game I know of which made lot of money is Minecraft. Also, fucl facebook. Everything related to it. How are those companies in crisis? They have been around since like forever.

3) garg. If you think like that, you shouldn't be here.

Uh... I don't get it. What are you talking about?

Also, Iphone isn't the real deal anymore. Android is. Whatever. touch screens aren't good device for platformers. In terms of money and gameplay, Facebook is more profitable than iphone.

I don't own either of them so I don't know anything regarding them. Again, I'd rather play a touch screen game than a facebook game. I'd rather die than see the gaming industry focusing its energies on facebook.

Another nonsense. It appears that Epic care. Cliffy B recently said that he is looking for the right partner to bring back Jazz Jackrabbit.

You're missing the point entirely. Platformers aren't as popular as they used to be and you still haven't proven this wrong. The fact platformers still exist is like saying that nazism is just like it was before because nazi people still exist even though nazi germany doesn't anymore. Terrible example, I know.

Besides I yet have to see if this jazz game will be made. Besides, to put it in your own words, "bring back Jazz Jackrabbit". Bring back eh? Looks like Epic stopped making jazz games because the market did not care about them anymore.

Nothing is impossible. Yeah, Mario is more popular blah blah. If everyone is thinking like that, there would exist only one platformer franchise - Mario.

All I can say to this is :\

But lets see how wrong you are. Two examples. Bionic Commando Rearmed - arcade game released in 1987. Bionic Commando Rearmed - released in 2008. Big success. Not many people know it, but many liked it! A sequel is in the works. Donkey Kong Country - 1994 - big success for SNES, but no sequels were made until 2010. Donkey Kong County Returns - big success. Sales almost like New Super Mario. Well, who would have thought? Mario is not "still alive" because it's popular. It's popular because almost all of the Mario games offers simple and brilliant gameplay.

Self contradictory much?

Donkey Kong Country Returns is popular because it's Nintendo, how many times do I need to say this before people comprehend it? Hell, DKCR ads were even in TV. This is like one of the very few games that get ads on tv.

It's popular because almost all of the Mario games offers simple and brilliant gameplay.

No. Just no. It isn't popular because of this. Or well, not only because of this.

And now Commander Keen. The last episodes were released back in 1992. They were big success for pc. Now, we know the game got a potential. There are many ways to improve it. The formula to recreate the game is clear. If doing it right, going for digital distribution and with a good marketing, the game will sell very well. It's only matter of will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14

As long as said game keeps being nothing but a dream, I am in the right. Though, I really wish I was as optimistic as you are. But things are only going to get worse. It only gets worse...

[Syllypryde]

As much as I would like to disagree with CKeen, I have mostly always been a cynical bastard. With that said I am forced to agree with him. The gaming industry as well as the music industry, film industry, television industry, etc. are all about what's "in" and popular. I always believed popularity only mattered to naive and superficial teenagers, but alas, many adults are just as mindless, superificial and childish as teenagers. Our society is so damned trendy it is sickening, it really is! Trends always die and they die for one very important reason. The reason is because all trends are dependent on gimic and image, thus quality and originality will always take second place to them. Trends and the narrowminded simpletons who embrace them have little to no integrity and once that becomes apparent, in order to not become uncool and unpopular and to continue to be accepted by people who are part of the self-proclaimed cool crowd, who do not deserve to be worshipped or held in such high regard, they will look for a new trend to blindly follow.

Making games that are popular is profitable, but many companies are too short-sighted to realize the money they rake in is merely nothing more than a short-term profit. Whether you are a software company, record company, movie studio, best selling author, etc, when you allow yourself to become completely dependent on a trend for profit, once the trend dies, you die along with it!

The games that pioneered the concepts popular today are long forgotten while the second and third-rate hacks that merely did nothing more than rip off the original game are seen as popular and kick-ass! First-person shooter games are a textbook example of this. What is the gimic and image of these games? The graphics! Today's games are all about graphics and nothing more. Games are judged solely on the quality of the graphics while gameplay, strategy and originality take a backseat. The only thing that separates one first-person shooter game from another is the graphics. Otherwise, they are all the same damn game!

Call of Duty seems to be the rage now, but to me, it is not any more special than all the other first-person shooter games that came before it. Other then having top of the line graphics and having the ability to play others over the Internet, it has nothing really going for it. When you look past the graphics, which I am more than willing to admit are kick-ass, the gameplay is just as redundant and unoriginal as most of the games that came before it. Since gaming systems now have Internet access, playing over the Internet is nothing new.

But not to worry my friends! Trends die and before too long Call of Duty will join the ranks of Guitar Hero, Grand Theft Auto, Doom, Quake, Donkey Kong, Pac Man, and Commander Keen. It will soon be forgotten while the mindless borg drones move on to the next trend! This is the reason Commander Keen will never again be profitable!

Patrick

[Toothpick]

I don't think Commander Keen is inherently unprofitable. Just because Keen is the product of the early 90's doesn't mean the concept itself is outdated. A boy genius saving the world is a concept that will always be popular with children, whether it be Dexter's Lab or Jimmy Neutron.

Plus, Keen has guns, and we all know how much the modern gaming industry loves those. Yeah, Keen's guns are bright and colorful, but they go PEW PEW PEW and that's all people want these days. Maybe Keen could become a space marine and start driving warthogs.

I am led to believe that these forgotten game franchises just need a strong enough advertising campaign to be effectively brought back. There's tons of these franchises in the gaming industry, they can't all be unprofitable. If I remember correctly, Keen was quite popular up until id Software decided to put the series on the back burner in favor of Doom and Wolfenstein 3D. The series didn't lose popularity, they just stopped making them.

I don't know how good sales were for the last Keen games, but surely they were good enough for id to promise an additional trilogy at the end of the last one.

[tulip]

Yeah, Mario is more popular blah blah. If everyone is thinking like that, there would exist only one platformer franchise - Mario. But lets see how wrong you are. Two examples. Bionic Commando - arcade game released in 1987. Bionic Commando Rearmed - released in 2008. Big success. Not many people know it, but many liked it! A sequel is in the works. Donkey Kong Country - 1994 - big success for SNES, but no sequels were made until 2010. Donkey Kong County Returns - big success. Sales almost like New Super Mario. Well, who would have thought? Mario is not "still alive" because it's popular. It's popular because almost all of the Mario games offers simple and brilliant gameplay.

I know I made the point about reviving Keen could be easily done, but you seem to virtually prove me wrong here (although you intended contradictory): I never heard of Bionic Commando yeah, but you're other example is pointless because Donkey Kong is essentially part of the Mario franchise, it's only a small branch of it.

[Dynamo]

A boy genius saving the world is a concept that will always be popular with children, whether it be Dexter's Lab or Jimmy Neutron.

Plus, Keen has guns, and we all know how much the modern gaming industry loves those. Yeah, Keen's guns are bright and colorful, but they go PEW PEW PEW and that's all people want these days. Maybe Keen could become a space marine and start driving warthogs.

nope.avi once more. It won't be successful just because it has guns or because the concept will be good for kids.

I agree with Syllypryde completely, btw.

Yeah, Mario is more popular blah blah. If everyone is thinking like that, there would exist only one platformer franchise - Mario. But lets see how wrong you are. Two examples. Bionic Commando - arcade game released in 1987. Bionic Commando Rearmed - released in 2008. Big success. Not many people know it, but many liked it! A sequel is in the works. Donkey Kong Country - 1994 - big success for SNES, but no sequels were made until 2010. Donkey Kong County Returns - big success. Sales almost like New Super Mario. Well, who would have thought? Mario is not "still alive" because it's popular. It's popular because almost all of the Mario games offers simple and brilliant gameplay.

I know I made the point about reviving Keen could be easily done, but you seem to virtually prove me wrong here (although you intended contradictory): I never heard of Bionic Commando yeah, but you're other example is pointless because Donkey Kong is essentially part of the Mario franchise, it's only a small branch of it.

Exactly.

[Toothpick]

A boy genius saving the world is a concept that will always be popular with children, whether it be Dexter's Lab or Jimmy Neutron.

Plus, Keen has guns, and we all know how much the modern gaming industry loves those. Yeah, Keen's guns are bright and colorful, but they go PEW PEW PEW and that's all people want these days. Maybe Keen could become a space marine and start driving warthogs.

nope.avi once more. It won't be successful just because it has guns or because the concept will be good for kids.

I was joking about the guns part. But I still don't see why the concept of Keen is unprofitable and yet much stranger things are. Ignoring Mario, a series about a mustached plumber in a psychedelic world full of mushrooms and flying turtles, I don't see why everyone would be weirded out by Keen in an age where new IPs such as Angry Birds and Super Meat Boy are popular.

It's all in the marketing. Anything can be popular if the marketing is effective enough and enough people hear about it. Unfortunately, companies tend to rely solely on brand recognition alone to push sales and that's why Keen won't make it. That's why most of these old IPs don't make it.

[Roobar]

I know I made the point about reviving Keen could be easily done, but you seem to virtually prove me wrong here (although you intended contradictory): I never heard of Bionic Commando yeah, but you're other example is pointless because Donkey Kong is essentially part of the Mario franchise, it's only a small branch of it.

Duh. That doesn't change anything. And how exactly it is a part of the Mario franchise anyway? Donkey Kong Country was developed by Rare. Donkey Kong Returns was developed by Retro Studios. Yeah, Retro may be financially a division of Nintendo now, but they are a completely separate studio. If the game was crap, it wasn't going to sell well. There were many Nintendo titles that were terrible. For example wii music. Big advertisements, Nintendo game etc., but worse sells and garg game. So that Nintendo is financially behind DKCR, doesn't change much the whole thing. DKCR is simply more than a good game. What's the big difference if id gives the Keen rights to Lolapps Inc? And if, by chance, they release a great new Keen game that is even financially successful? What, you'll say that it is essentially a small branch of the id software lines franchise? C'mon. Almost nobody knew Ravenwood was by John Romero, but that doesn't stop his company from making it a successful game with almost 5 million users. What should stop Keen from being successful then? Nothing really.

"My point was that while platformers used to be the dominant genre in the past, they aren't nearly as many as they were before.."

When do the platformers used to be dominant genre? Only in your childhood because you happened to play mostly platformers by chance. There were times when platformers got their highs, but that was only when SMB1-3 and Sonic 1-3 were released, when the gaming was young, rapidly evolving. Even though they were top of the lines of Nintendo and SEGA, there were plenty of other genres and many great games, some evolving, some just newly appearing. Naturally you cannot expect side scrollers to be dominant all the time, but that doesn't necessary means that what's released today is bad or not successful enough. Now, as I pointed before, 2010 was quite a successful year for the genre.

"Compared to other genres they're now dead both in popularity and number of games."

Compare side-scrollers to flight sims or space sims. The fans of these genres may really complain, because at least I didn't saw a single space sim or flight sim released last year. There might be one or two, I don't know.

"No one gives a fucl if platformers still exist, it is still a fact that the genre has made its time and has been largely replaced"

It seems that you don't give a fcuk if they exist and that was quite simply a stupid thought. The genre doesn't "made its time". They were saying that for the adventures genre, but it didn't die. There are many reason the adventure genre won't die, one of which is it's gameplay itself. So will the platformers. They won't die and it's lame to say something like that they made its time. They can offer many, most importantly simple and fun gameplay. Yeah, they may have their flaws. Some years are lacking good releases, but so do every other genre. It's not a platformers only symptom. For example strategies. There were years before where very small amount of good strategies were released. Last year for example, turn based strategies was saved by Civilization 5. I don't know any other good turn-based strategy. On the other hand, I may say publishers don't give a garg about FPS genre and that's why it is in crisis. Almost all of the titles are sequels with "more of the same" and with almost zero innovation. Thankfully, 3-4 titles will change that a bit in the next 2 years.

"Also, fucl facebook."

Lame.

"How are those companies in crisis? They have been around since like forever."

Only a few companies do real profits of their games. For example, Microsoft is just now beginning to make money from it's xbox console and games, sony is not making money and nintendo was making a lot of money, but their profits drops a lot recently. The situation is almost the same with the bigger game developers/publishers. In order to make bigger and better looking games, some of them invest more and more, and in the end, the do sell well, but those games doesn't make big or even small profits. On the other hand, small companies with much smaller teams makes much bigger profits. And this is where Keen will shine.

"Platformers aren't as popular as they used to be and you still haven't proven this wrong."

You're ignorant. 2-3 platformers were constantly in the worldwide charts last year and you're still claiming that they aren't popular? It doesn't matter if they're nintondos or not. And that's only by the NPD charts. They don't track digital distributors where other titles shine. Hell, platformers are popular, not as like in the early 90s because of the variety of the games now-days, but still popular.

"Looks like Epic stopped making jazz games because the market did not care about them anymore."

Back then the times were different. There are many "if" factors for the success. Personally, I think JJ2 should have had much bigger success if it was released a bit earlier. Maybe 1/2 or 1 year earlier. But still, it was successful because they were starting to develop JJ3. I believe the arising of the FPS genre at that time changed their mind, not the "market did not care about them".

You're not being realistic, you're being ignorant and prejudiced, that's it. All in all I'm saying platformers or the gaming industry at it's own is not superb now, but it's not as bad as you're trying to take a picture of.

[VikingBoyBilly]

Afraid I have to agree with Delta and Ckeen here. But it's not a bad thing. Cuz we got mods, Keen will really never die. And even though it has no input from Tom or anyone from the original ID team, Keen 9, the epic conclusion we've all been waiting for, is being made. So I don't see any problems here

[Roobar]

Yeah, no problems at all! We've got mods, CKeen and TUIT @ 12.21.2012 .