...and make it better!
So it's well known that there are two below par Keen games, Keen GBC, which was terrible and Keen Dreams which simply could have been better.
But how? What would have made these games better PCKF? What would you have liked to see in them to make them able to claim their place among the other great episodes?
(Not bug stuff, bugs are bugs. What's missing? what should have been there and wasn't?)
Take a bad game...
Take a bad game...
What you really need, not what you think you ought to want.
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StupidBunny
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I think in Dreams, Keen simply felt (at least to me) too slow compared to in the other games. He may not actually be any slower than in Galaxy, but it certainly feels that way. I think it also suffers for the lack of pogo, which likewise affects Keen's maneuverability and the amount of control I feel I have (even Keen 1 without the pogo feels more agile when jumping, possibly because of the speed thing.) The flower power grenade-style attack is a cool idea, but unfortunately I think it compounds that limiting feeling that the other factors have. All in all, I think my biggest gripe with Dreams is that Keen just doesn't feel as powerful as he does in the other games.
Now, if you want my comments on how to improve Commander Keen: Codename 13...
Now, if you want my comments on how to improve Commander Keen: Codename 13...
Dreams could have used:
- More levels. There are a handful of unused levels (as is well known) and making use of these whould make it a better game.
- Slightly more importantly, better level design. I'd rather have the same number of levels there are now if it meant they got quite the same amount of love as many Galaxy levels.
- The way keys are implemented is significantly limited in comparison to Galaxy keydoors (heck, they're even outclassed by Vorticons doors).
Keen GBC should be redone from scratch. There's nothing Keen about this garg, except for the enemies.
I agree with StupidBunny about the movement, it's really a bit slow. It could really use more levels. And the lack of pogo is not a good idea, too. Why can't Keen have his pogo when he has his helmet?
However, I like Dreams anyway. Not sure why so many guys hate it.
I agree with StupidBunny about the movement, it's really a bit slow. It could really use more levels. And the lack of pogo is not a good idea, too. Why can't Keen have his pogo when he has his helmet?
However, I like Dreams anyway. Not sure why so many guys hate it.
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DaVince
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When I first played Keen Dreams, I felt disappointed, probably most due to:
- No pogo. I was totally used to that. Not even something comparable is available.
- Some disappointing level design. Heck, one of the levels is simply a screen with two immediate exits and a secret area in the water!
- Lack of point to some levels, once I actually knew what to do.
- Possibility to screw yourself over and make the game not finishable - at least, I believe this is the case? You can just skip getting the bombs, after all.
- Keen throwing stuff at an arc - heck, Keen not having his trusty gun!
Keen simply felt underpowered and it's because I played all other Keen games before it (except GBC).
- No pogo. I was totally used to that. Not even something comparable is available.
- Some disappointing level design. Heck, one of the levels is simply a screen with two immediate exits and a secret area in the water!
- Lack of point to some levels, once I actually knew what to do.
- Possibility to screw yourself over and make the game not finishable - at least, I believe this is the case? You can just skip getting the bombs, after all.
- Keen throwing stuff at an arc - heck, Keen not having his trusty gun!
Keen simply felt underpowered and it's because I played all other Keen games before it (except GBC).
Wow look at me I'm lurking
Keen GBC was Awesome! It's not canon, but it's not intended to be. It did what it could with the technical limitations of the hardware and made a game that was fun and recaptured the feel and nostalgia of Keen games. The only reason it gets a bad press is that people compare it with the canon games. Treat it as a spin-off...
The most disappointing Keen game is the buggy horror that is Keen 3.
The most disappointing Keen game is the buggy horror that is Keen 3.
Cereal Board!
(Cereal wiki has sadly died)Deltamatic wrote:Prepositions are things I end sentences with.
hold it right there.... this is moving into the bug department already, and that was not the point of this thread.
I completely disagree with all negative statements made and to be made about Keen's weapons in Dreams, they were novel and interesting gameplay-wise, in one word awesome.
I agree with the sentiment of unpolished leveldesign in Dreams, and that accounts for a part of Keen 3 too. The thing is that in 3 you didn't have to complete more than 3 levels iirc.
I didn't like the movement control and enemy killing procedure in GBC, the physics were the thing that tore my nerves the most in this game, since I often just fell into a pit super fast, instead of landing on a block as I thought. Way too many pits and practically no solid blocks is what further made the levels un-keen (as I pointed out in one of my first threads: endless pits are in none of the keen games except a few in Dreams and a single one in Keen3)
Keen2 had the greatest features of all Vorticon games, but it could have been used better. The usage of bridges was barely noticable for example.
I completely disagree with all negative statements made and to be made about Keen's weapons in Dreams, they were novel and interesting gameplay-wise, in one word awesome.
I agree with the sentiment of unpolished leveldesign in Dreams, and that accounts for a part of Keen 3 too. The thing is that in 3 you didn't have to complete more than 3 levels iirc.
I didn't like the movement control and enemy killing procedure in GBC, the physics were the thing that tore my nerves the most in this game, since I often just fell into a pit super fast, instead of landing on a block as I thought. Way too many pits and practically no solid blocks is what further made the levels un-keen (as I pointed out in one of my first threads: endless pits are in none of the keen games except a few in Dreams and a single one in Keen3)
Keen2 had the greatest features of all Vorticon games, but it could have been used better. The usage of bridges was barely noticable for example.
You crack me up little buddy!-
VikingBoyBilly
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people think keen dreams is 'sub-par'? I think I said this before, but the only thing that needs to be changed is adding a way to go back to a level if you fail to get the boobus bombs.
Music might be nice, but in a weird way I just can't imagine it being as good WITH music.
Music might be nice, but in a weird way I just can't imagine it being as good WITH music.
"I don't trust players. Not one bit." - Levellass
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Stealthy71088
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Keen Dreams I liked for the most part. But I think it would have been better if:
Level design was cleverer- I swear there were two or three levels where there was an entire screen and that's it.
Enemies were cleverer- Some of them were good, but they felt almost a bit too rigid in general. One of the neat things about galaxy enemies is that a lot of them have more of a random nature to their movement, and some of them aren't confined to the ground. So its fun just to play with the aI sometimes. But I feel that with most of the enemies in dreams you can't really do that.
Music- It really didn't feel the same without music. I didn't get dreams until after playing 4, possibly 5, so I found it that much harder to get drawn into the game.
Difficulty- Hard mode is easy mode! The only difference between the two is lack of ammo, but when playing there's a good chance you won't notice the difference. I think enemy placement should have changed.
GBC-
The GBC was especially disappointing for me because I got it as a gift when I was bedridden with some really nasty illness for a couple days. I was hoping for another galaxy game akin to Ceilick's stuff (although this was before I even knew Ceilick was going to release galaxy mods)
I felt the levels were passable. Not great, but okay.
I felt the enemies were horrendous. EVERY ENEMY, from shikadi masters to dopefish could be shot and then pogoed on to be killed. Many of them moved and acted just like their counterparts. When an enemy shot, their bullets were painfully slow. This was the biggest disappointment in the game for me. I would have put up with everything else if the enemies were any decent. Dopefish was incredibly disappointing. In galaxy you have one of the deadliest and coolest characters in the game. In GBC, you have a stupid fish that randomly jumps out of the water. Also annoying was that all the enemies were your size. Some were supposed to be bigger, but in the GBC weren't.
The whole pogoing on enemies I felt was silly too.
Point placement was bad. You honestly did not care about points in this game, they were more obnoxious than anything and did absolutely nothing.
Music I felt was painful to listen to. After hearing galaxy tunes...... one of which I have on my itunes (kick in the pants), you can't go and groove to GBC stuff.
Bosses were.... odd. They were an interesting add on, but I remember at least two of them having AI that was just too static and predictable to really be that fun fighting.
Story- unoriginal, not particularly funny. The way the three trilogies were meant to be combined would have been great.... if it weren't for the fact that who ever came up with the idea threw keen lore out the window. The whole coming up with a shikadi homeworld, but populating it with gnostience IV's enemies instead of actual shikadi--- really?
Last but not least, the game developers had the nerve to show Mortimer at the beginning of every level. But did he actually do anything? NO! I went through all that work to beat that game, only to find that there was no unlockable boss fight with Mortimer or anything. Honestly, I don't know why Mortimer was even shown in the game because he didn't do anything.
Level design was cleverer- I swear there were two or three levels where there was an entire screen and that's it.
Enemies were cleverer- Some of them were good, but they felt almost a bit too rigid in general. One of the neat things about galaxy enemies is that a lot of them have more of a random nature to their movement, and some of them aren't confined to the ground. So its fun just to play with the aI sometimes. But I feel that with most of the enemies in dreams you can't really do that.
Music- It really didn't feel the same without music. I didn't get dreams until after playing 4, possibly 5, so I found it that much harder to get drawn into the game.
Difficulty- Hard mode is easy mode! The only difference between the two is lack of ammo, but when playing there's a good chance you won't notice the difference. I think enemy placement should have changed.
GBC-
The GBC was especially disappointing for me because I got it as a gift when I was bedridden with some really nasty illness for a couple days. I was hoping for another galaxy game akin to Ceilick's stuff (although this was before I even knew Ceilick was going to release galaxy mods)
I felt the levels were passable. Not great, but okay.
I felt the enemies were horrendous. EVERY ENEMY, from shikadi masters to dopefish could be shot and then pogoed on to be killed. Many of them moved and acted just like their counterparts. When an enemy shot, their bullets were painfully slow. This was the biggest disappointment in the game for me. I would have put up with everything else if the enemies were any decent. Dopefish was incredibly disappointing. In galaxy you have one of the deadliest and coolest characters in the game. In GBC, you have a stupid fish that randomly jumps out of the water. Also annoying was that all the enemies were your size. Some were supposed to be bigger, but in the GBC weren't.
The whole pogoing on enemies I felt was silly too.
Point placement was bad. You honestly did not care about points in this game, they were more obnoxious than anything and did absolutely nothing.
Music I felt was painful to listen to. After hearing galaxy tunes...... one of which I have on my itunes (kick in the pants), you can't go and groove to GBC stuff.
Bosses were.... odd. They were an interesting add on, but I remember at least two of them having AI that was just too static and predictable to really be that fun fighting.
Story- unoriginal, not particularly funny. The way the three trilogies were meant to be combined would have been great.... if it weren't for the fact that who ever came up with the idea threw keen lore out the window. The whole coming up with a shikadi homeworld, but populating it with gnostience IV's enemies instead of actual shikadi--- really?
Last but not least, the game developers had the nerve to show Mortimer at the beginning of every level. But did he actually do anything? NO! I went through all that work to beat that game, only to find that there was no unlockable boss fight with Mortimer or anything. Honestly, I don't know why Mortimer was even shown in the game because he didn't do anything.
Keen Dreams was made in the time of two months, and considering that the game can probably be seen as impressive in some sense. But there is definite room for improvement. My complaints with Keen Dreams are the following:
1. The physics. Keen's jump in Keen Dreams works differently than in Keens 1-6; when he bumps his head, he drops immediately. This feature is a mild annoyance in the levels as they exist, but is very restricting to level design.
2. Level design. Several levels are ridiculously short, incredibly empty, and either devoid of secret areas or having secrets that are insanely unintuitive (if anyone has taken a look at spud city in a level editor and pathed the passages, you'll know what I mean).
Keen Dreams oddly has several levels missing and replaced by those template bonus levels.
Keen Dreams level design is restricted by the amount of points it can have due to points taking the form of sprites, rather than tiles, which means they take up more memory.
Keen Dreams only features 1 key and 1 corresponding door. This isn't horrible, but it does restrict the level design.
3. The menu. The Keen Dreams menu is just bad in comparison to Keen's 1-6. It only holds a mild advantage over keen 6 in that the story is accessible in-game.
4. Lack of pogo . Although this feature is part of what makes Keen Dreams unique and offers opportunity for different styles of level design, in my opinion it is ultimately inferior to a Keen game with a pogo. That said, Keen Dreams wouldn't be Keen Dreams with a pogo; if that means it's stuck being inferior, so be it.
Keen Dreams isn't awful, but another month or two really could have improved the level design, it's biggest drawback in my opinion.
Keen GBC is...well its very different. How could Keen GBC have been improved?
*Improved jumping physics. The jumping in Keen GBC is wretched.
*Improved Level design. As Tulip mentioned, Keen GBC relies on bottomless pits heavily in it's level design. This is a grand departure from the original Keen games.
The addition of poles would probably benefit level design as well.
*Improved Enemy Ai: It's been awhile since I played Keen GBC, but as I recall most enemies just walk back and forth. It would have been great to see original enemy behaviors (although there were some).
*The Stunner: Having to shoot and then pogo on every enemy to defeat isn't very keenish. This feature would have been nice for some enemies, but Keen GBC would have benefited from a more traditional use of Keen's weapon. Also some enemies should be invincible, some should take several shots. This is fundamental to Keen.
*Graphics: Some of the redesigns of original enemies are very poor, in my opinion. I realize there are limitations with the GBC, but I think some could have been more faithful to their original designs. Additionally, some of the graphics look like platforms when they are not, or don't look like things Keen should be able to stand on but he can.
*The Story: It's decent, I'd say it's comparable to the story in Keen Dreams and the stories in many mods, but it's just not as exciting as it could be. In addition, the way Mortimer is used in the story is just dumb; if they never mentioned him it wouldn't change the story whatsoever.
*Faithfulness to Keen Lore. As Stealthy mentions, there are so many instances where Keen GBC rewrites what we learned about the Keen universe. Whether this was done intentionally or not, it'd be a huge improvement if Keen GBC had gotten the facts straight.
A bit more controversial, but I'm going to say I think Keen 6 is also sub-par compared to the other episodes.
Aside from graphical bugs, my gripe is with the level design. About half the levels are just poorly constructed in my opinion, and make bad use of space, optional areas, and general pathing. Additionally, I think many levels are poorly themed.
Highlights of what I think are the bad include: the first dome of darkness (ridiculously empty), the bloogdome (there aren't even bloogs here! Too much of the level is optional, the level forces Keen to make an overly dangerous drop) , Bloogton Tower (too much cyan, requires the player to move behind walls too much, very empty feeling), Bloogville (no bloogs! A lot of awkward pathing) , BASA (the middle section involving riding a goplat behind the wall), and Bloogbase management district (poor use of platforms and space, point item spamming).
1. The physics. Keen's jump in Keen Dreams works differently than in Keens 1-6; when he bumps his head, he drops immediately. This feature is a mild annoyance in the levels as they exist, but is very restricting to level design.
2. Level design. Several levels are ridiculously short, incredibly empty, and either devoid of secret areas or having secrets that are insanely unintuitive (if anyone has taken a look at spud city in a level editor and pathed the passages, you'll know what I mean).
Keen Dreams oddly has several levels missing and replaced by those template bonus levels.
Keen Dreams level design is restricted by the amount of points it can have due to points taking the form of sprites, rather than tiles, which means they take up more memory.
Keen Dreams only features 1 key and 1 corresponding door. This isn't horrible, but it does restrict the level design.
3. The menu. The Keen Dreams menu is just bad in comparison to Keen's 1-6. It only holds a mild advantage over keen 6 in that the story is accessible in-game.
4. Lack of pogo . Although this feature is part of what makes Keen Dreams unique and offers opportunity for different styles of level design, in my opinion it is ultimately inferior to a Keen game with a pogo. That said, Keen Dreams wouldn't be Keen Dreams with a pogo; if that means it's stuck being inferior, so be it.
Keen Dreams isn't awful, but another month or two really could have improved the level design, it's biggest drawback in my opinion.
Keen GBC is...well its very different. How could Keen GBC have been improved?
*Improved jumping physics. The jumping in Keen GBC is wretched.
*Improved Level design. As Tulip mentioned, Keen GBC relies on bottomless pits heavily in it's level design. This is a grand departure from the original Keen games.
The addition of poles would probably benefit level design as well.
*Improved Enemy Ai: It's been awhile since I played Keen GBC, but as I recall most enemies just walk back and forth. It would have been great to see original enemy behaviors (although there were some).
*The Stunner: Having to shoot and then pogo on every enemy to defeat isn't very keenish. This feature would have been nice for some enemies, but Keen GBC would have benefited from a more traditional use of Keen's weapon. Also some enemies should be invincible, some should take several shots. This is fundamental to Keen.
*Graphics: Some of the redesigns of original enemies are very poor, in my opinion. I realize there are limitations with the GBC, but I think some could have been more faithful to their original designs. Additionally, some of the graphics look like platforms when they are not, or don't look like things Keen should be able to stand on but he can.
*The Story: It's decent, I'd say it's comparable to the story in Keen Dreams and the stories in many mods, but it's just not as exciting as it could be. In addition, the way Mortimer is used in the story is just dumb; if they never mentioned him it wouldn't change the story whatsoever.
*Faithfulness to Keen Lore. As Stealthy mentions, there are so many instances where Keen GBC rewrites what we learned about the Keen universe. Whether this was done intentionally or not, it'd be a huge improvement if Keen GBC had gotten the facts straight.
A bit more controversial, but I'm going to say I think Keen 6 is also sub-par compared to the other episodes.
Aside from graphical bugs, my gripe is with the level design. About half the levels are just poorly constructed in my opinion, and make bad use of space, optional areas, and general pathing. Additionally, I think many levels are poorly themed.
Highlights of what I think are the bad include: the first dome of darkness (ridiculously empty), the bloogdome (there aren't even bloogs here! Too much of the level is optional, the level forces Keen to make an overly dangerous drop) , Bloogton Tower (too much cyan, requires the player to move behind walls too much, very empty feeling), Bloogville (no bloogs! A lot of awkward pathing) , BASA (the middle section involving riding a goplat behind the wall), and Bloogbase management district (poor use of platforms and space, point item spamming).
Last edited by Ceilick on Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:11, edited 1 time in total.
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MOM4Evr
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Keen GBC has poles.Ceilick wrote:The addition of poles would probably benefit level design as well.
I like Keen GBC as a spinoff, it's not canon, but it doesn't have to be. It's still fun. The physics are what I dislike most about it. Pole climbing is slow and strange. Some backgrounds are really busy and look like they belong more in Cosmo than Keen. Pogoing is kinda strange, being down+A, but it's hard to have 3 actions in a GBC game anyway. Better than not having a pogo at all. If they had made it a PC game I imagine they would have made that aspect work out better. Graphics and music aren't terribly good, but it's probably as good as a GBC can do.
Probably what I dislike most about Keen Dreams is the world map. Everything is spaced out strange, and Keen walks SO STINKING SLOW. It takes forever to get from one place to another. The levels are easy to tell apart, though, which is nice; they're all pretty distinctive. I personally dislike the only-stunnable enemies. As has been stated before, I WANT KEEN'S BIG GUN BACK. It's kinda hard to hit enemies sometimes, especially those asparagus guys.
I like how Xmas 2010 turned out, so I think it's probably the map and the non-killable enemies that I dislike most. The physics engine is not quite as good as it could have been. It's like they started to implement Galaxy-type physics engine but stopped at a halfway cross between that and Vorticons. I liked Vorticon physics and I like Galaxy physics, but not Dream physics. Level design isn't terrible, but it isn't great either.
I have to agree with Ceilick on Keen 6. It doesn't quite feel like a legit Keen game to me. The music is great and all that, but the lack of story just made it not feel right to me. I don't quite like the enemies as much as other Keen games, either. The mechanics for accessing different areas were cheap takeoffs on Keen4, too. Needing a rope, sandwich, and keycard just felt like ripoffs from Keen4 needing a swimsuit. It feels fine in Keen4 but not here. I don't know why.
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Bonevelous
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I think Keen Dreams wasn't dream-like enough. It was just too consistent to feel like you were actually in a dream. That's just a minor issue, though, and easily be overlooked by suspending the disbelief a little higher. The main issue is the lack of a pogo, but it's disappointing some levels in that game are rather rushed. I don't know if I've ever beaten the thing without either cheating or skipping a few levels, but I might have done it.
I've never played Keen GBC, but I've seen gameplay of it. I guess it'd make a good fan-game, but a commercial game? Well... I'd have to play it.
And now for games that are good, but could use some improvement!
Keen 1 just feels too empty. It makes up for that with being very simple and straight to the point, therefore being a great introduction to the series.
Keen 3 has issues with some ugly graphics and lousy map design. It makes up for this with the invincibility ankhs and the fun boss at the end.
And Keen 6 can only be bought from eBay (and it's hard to find), or pirating (which is lame)...
Makes up for this with its awesome music and the best glitch in video game history: the impossible bullet trick.
I've never played Keen GBC, but I've seen gameplay of it. I guess it'd make a good fan-game, but a commercial game? Well... I'd have to play it.
And now for games that are good, but could use some improvement!
Keen 1 just feels too empty. It makes up for that with being very simple and straight to the point, therefore being a great introduction to the series.
Keen 3 has issues with some ugly graphics and lousy map design. It makes up for this with the invincibility ankhs and the fun boss at the end.
And Keen 6 can only be bought from eBay (and it's hard to find), or pirating (which is lame)...
Makes up for this with its awesome music and the best glitch in video game history: the impossible bullet trick.
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KeenEmpire
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