Mind = Blown.

LJH · Post by **LJH** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 14:20

I just realised that Keen 4 is the only Keen game without a proper final level of any kind. Sure, in Keen 1 and 2 you don't *have* to beat the levels in the right order, but there's still a clearly-intended-to-be-final level in each, but in Keen 4, beyond the level numbers (which aren't even visible without either hacking the game or using cheats) there's nothing to hint at any intention whatsoever of level order (except the three levels that have to be beaten to unlock other levels).

EDIT: And now that I think about it... there isn't even a level that could theoretically fill this role, at least in my opinion. The two highest-level-number non-optional levels are Isle of Fire and Well of Wishes, but IoF doesn't really seem that "final" even though it's a decent length and challening level, while IMO it's just weird to have the only underwater level in the game (thus, a different play style) as a final level. Most of the other levels containing council members are all far too easy and/or short for the role, the only ones I would think are both long enough and challenging enough for a "final level" role would be Crystalus and Pyramid of the Shadows. I suppose if I had to elect a "final" level, I'd pick Crystalus because of the way parts of the level are re-used and all linekd together, giving it a somewhat similar feel to QED.

Eros · Post by **Eros** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 14:59

pyramid of the forbidden.

RoboBlue · Post by **RoboBlue** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 15:25

After seeing the metal sign from the Keen 4 demo tileset, I've wondered about a Shikadi-themed level to tie the two games together properly.
I think most people consider Well of Wishes to be the final level though, if only because it's different from every other level (and one of the most difficult).

mortimer · Post by **mortimer** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 15:37

Grimson · Post by **Grimson** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 15:45

I've usually considered the Pyramid of the Gnosticene Ancients as the final level.

Post by **KeenRush** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 15:55

Well Of Wishes has been the final level for me more or less always as I tend to go through all the other levels first -- and in a way it's logical too as you need the scuba gear first and might just as well complete all the other levels on dry land and head into the lake last, and the Well is the southern-most place there, so you tend to go there last. Edit: And also for the fact that it's the level with so different gameplay.

MOM4Evr · Post by **MOM4Evr** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 16:26

^^ I agree with KeenRush here. The Well of Wishes seems to fit the "final-level" role for me, just because I usually play it last (and also it used to be the hardest Council Member level for me because I didn't realize that Control makes you swim faster).

LJH wrote: while IMO it's just weird to have the only underwater level in the game (thus, a different play style) as a final level.

In reality, I think that that's the difference between the accepted "final" levels in Keen 1 and 2. You don't have to directly shoot any enemies in the "final" level of Keen 1, which makes the gameplay different (Unless you get those teddy bears in the bottom, which I usually do), and the gameplay in DC in Keen2 feels a lot different since you leave the lights off for the whole level (and it's way harder than most of the other levels).

I kind of always liked that about Keen4 though. You don't have to beat any of the levels in any particular order. You can just beat a couple levels which unlock most of the world map. Then, you can go anywhere you choose.

While we're on the topic, I think it's strange that there's no specific FIRST level in Keen3. You have a choice between any of 4 levels to play at first. I usually just go upwards and play that passable city as a first level myself, as it is fairly easy and has a bunch of guns near the beginning (and a ton at the end).

Toothpick · Post by **Toothpick** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 17:46

Grimson wrote:I've usually considered the Pyramid of the Gnosticene Ancients as the final level.

Same.

shikadi · Post by **shikadi** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 18:14

I saw Pyramid of shadows as the final level, it was long, and the chambers keep coming.

Deltamatic · Post by **Deltamatic** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 18:43

I didn't think of Well of Wishes as the only possible final level, but it ends up being the final level on my Keen 4 playthroughs due to the required levels behind it, the different play style, and the difficulty. And because I like saving the Dopefish for last

Paramultart · Post by **Paramultart** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 18:56

I always felt that Border Village was the appropriate last level for Keen 4.
It's so ridiculously hard (seriously, all those bounders and spike pits... WTF!?)

I don't even try to collect those water drops, because they're just so darn inaccessible.

So yeah, I usually give up right about there.

VikingBoyBilly · Post by **VikingBoyBilly** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 19:45

I always played well of wishes last.

The fact you have to go to the other side of the map to find scuba gear really sets the lake up to be explored last, since you'll probably be exploring the levels closer to you than backtracking to where you started.

Roobar · Post by **Roobar** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 19:57

Hah yeah. It's not that mind=blown, but still worth mentioning. I think it would fit the modern "non-linear" term. Maybe that's also another reason why Keen 4 is considered to be the best from the fans. However, the well of wishes always comes naturally as the last level for me.

Post by **Levellass** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:18

Mind you, Keen 3 is the only game with a traditional videogame boss, sure you *can* see the Shikadi master or the Q.E.D as one, but not really, it's more a goal.

Shadow Master · Post by **Shadow Master** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:27

Levellass wrote:Mind you, Keen 3 is the only game with a traditional videogame boss, sure you *can* see the Shikadi master or the Q.E.D as one, but not really, it's more a goal.

No Keen 1 Vorticon Commander love?