The Cave of Oblivion...

MortimerInBlack · Post by **MortimerInBlack** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:44

Level Map here: http://dosclassics.com/keen/map.php?a=3&l=15

I know that we've known this for some time, but this level can only be won by going up over the mountain. That's because the final bottom-right area is cutoff since the access tunnel is only one square high.

However, as I was looking over this map again, I saw something more. Check out the area right after the 4 doors, but before the exit door. See those spikes? They're impossible to cross... And no, there is no Ankh anywhere in this level.

My brain is telling me, wow, how can you place spikes like that and NOT realize that it's impossible to cross? Perhaps Tom Hall intentionally made this level the way it is after all. It wouldn't be the only secret area that was totally locked out in Keen games (e.g., Keen4, Life-Water Oasis).

P.S. If you go backwards from the bottom exit, at the first red Vorticon you see (with the red ball), there are spikes by him too that seem impossible to cross, though I may be mistaken about this one.

Gridlock · Post by **Gridlock** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:19

Wow, I had never noticed those spikes before. I think this level truly was intended as "oblivion" for the player. Maybe the player would get to that area above the doors and see that the exit is impossible to reach, suggesting another way to beat the level. I think the intention was that the player would be able to open the 4 doors but then not beat the level due to the spikes. The developers, however, overlooked the critical tile error that prevents you from getting there. Otherwise why would they have bothered putting enemies beyond the error? I'm not saying any of this is great level design, but it does seem to support the theory I've always had.

It also doesn't make sense that there are 6 teddy bears in an area that you can't get back down out of. If you jump up there, you end up trapped.
I think the last thing you pointed out was simply a lazy level design problem.

Edit: I think another thing that supports this theory is that, had the developers intended the lower exit to be possible, they would have discovered the tile bug while playtesting. Because they knew the lower exit was fake, they probably didn't bother playtesting the majority of the level.

kuliwil · Post by **kuliwil** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:53

502 error on the image.

VikingBoyBilly · Post by **VikingBoyBilly** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:45

There ya go.

Grimson · Post by **Grimson** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:05

It's a troll-level, crappy one too

Paramultart · Post by **Paramultart** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 13:45

It's not a troll level, and it's not the result of poor/lazy level design. It's actually really, really clever.
When I was a young boy, my sister and I must have spend at least a good hour trying to beat this level. If you're observant and logical, the level tips you off pretty early on that there is an alternate way to go about that map, and that is the "HINT" I highlighted.

(Note: Parts of the route are optional, since it is extremely difficult to navigate around those spikes to collect the ammo)

I don't know about you, but when I first played this level as a kid, the VERY FIRST THING I did was try to go over the mountain looking for a secret area.
Not realizing you had to jump on the cloud, I gave up and entered the cave, and I died. A lot.

In fact, you would be right to assume that this is the reason the game is titled "Keen Must Die!"

While there are a few Stuffed VortiNinja dolls deep within the cave, there's not a lot else enticing the player to bother with it.
When exploring the cave a bit, I realized that there is no way to access all of that ammo without going over the mountain.
This compelled me to try jumping up that cliff that was just BARELY out of my reach... Again, and again, and again... Before I finally stumbled on to the cloud by accident, which was my ticket to hop right on over to the ammo, and finally, the exit.

I don't remember if my sister and I ever wasted our time collecting all the keys, but I do seem to remember coming across that second exit and thinking "THIS IS BULLCRAP".

So yeah... There are plenty of hints alluding to there being an alternate exit, so long as you give the designers more credit than to make blatant design flaws and unbeatable levels. What makes this level frustrating is how long it takes you to catch on.

The important thing to realize is that this is the FINAL LEVEL before the boss fight, and I really think they knew what they were doing when they made it.

Gridlock wrote:Maybe the player would get to that area above the doors and see that the exit is impossible to reach, suggesting another way to beat the level.

I strongly believe this, which supports the theory that the designer knew what he was doing, and was providing the player with hints throughout the level.

Gridlock wrote:It also doesn't make sense that there are 6 teddy bears in an area that you can't get back down out of. If you jump up there, you end up trapped.

It does make sense if you take into account that the lower section of the level was never intended to be beatable. Remember, this is the final level before the Mangling Machine. It is very likely it was designed to fucl with the player.

Gridlock wrote: I think the last thing you pointed out was simply a lazy level design problem.

I have to disagree. The spike by the Vorticon and red ball MortimerInBlack is referring to is easily passable. There were harder jumps in How Bleen Saved Kwanzaa.

Gridlock wrote: Edit: I think another thing that supports this theory is that, had the developers intended the lower exit to be possible, they would have discovered the tile bug while playtesting. Because they knew the lower exit was fake, they probably didn't bother playtesting the majority of the level.

I agree. I doubt the guys at ID bothered play-testing an area they knew was impossible. That just doesn't make sense.

VikingBoyBilly · Post by **VikingBoyBilly** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 14:43

I had an SGA-sheet, read the 'go up' sign, and beat the level on the first go. Then I felt like I was cheating, so I tried playing the level again 'the right way.'

Kinda funny they put that sign there when you don't get the SGA-translation chart until immediately after that level.

Paramultart · Post by **Paramultart** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 21:36

Does anyone know if an official Commander Keen strategy guide was ever sold?

StupidBunny · Post by **StupidBunny** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 22:33

I had noticed that, and indeed I do think it was intentional; it's just too deliberate for it to be a case of the designers failing to notice a one-tile-high space (unlike that other one, which may be unintentional after all.) I agree with Paramultart, that the bulk of the map was made so monotonous and so barren for the very purpose of making the "right" way feel totally futile--which indeed it is--as opposed to the "cheap" way, which has a massive if well-guarded cache of ammo next to it. It's also clear that that's the intended route since the long way has no such reward at the end, either in points or in ammo, and therefore nothing preparing you for your encounter with McMire or rewarding you for your incredible persistence.

Bubbatom · Post by **Bubbatom** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 22:35

I don't think there was ever any strategy guides or merchandise keen related that was sold apart from that watch that came with keen 6.

Post by **Fleexy** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 22:48

What about the "hints and cheats sheet" mentioned in the order form for Keens 2 and 3?

MortimerInBlack · Post by **MortimerInBlack** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 23:16

Gridlock wrote:It also doesn't make sense that there are 6 teddy bears in an area that you can't get back down out of. If you jump up there, you end up trapped.

Ah, but notice... You can get the bottom row of them by jumping low. As long as your feet don't go above the door, you will fall back down. In fact, the second row is gettable too if I'm not mistaken. So only 1 Vorti-Ninja doll is unobtainable...that is, if you could get to the bottom exit in the first place...

Paramultart wrote:I don't know about you, but when I first played this level as a kid, the VERY FIRST THING I did was try to go over the mountain looking for a secret area.

IIRC (it was when i was just a little kid), I did the same thing. As soon as I saw that sign, (i dont think I could read SGA yet), i began wondering. I immediately realized there were only two paths at first: forward, and up. And I just reasoned that the sign would point out the less obvious way, so I went up.

I believe I did not get stuck at the cloud because I think I already discovered cloud hopping in previous levels.

However, I remember once I got way down at the bottom right, where you can see the doors and bottom exit right below you. And I said to myself, how can I get there? But I never noticed those impassible spikes right before the exit. If I did, I might have realized, hmm, maybe it was intentionally unreachable?

And then one day I discovered Cerebral Cortex and the PCKF, and found the level maps, and all was good. The end.

edit:

Fleexy wrote:What about the "hints and cheats sheet" mentioned in the order form for Keens 2 and 3?

Is that the red piece of paper with a bunch of hints and cheats on it? I have it somewhere, but probably it is packed away as I'm about to move. Maybe in a week I'll find it.

Bubbatom · Post by **Bubbatom** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 0:09

I just thought the hints and tips sheets came with the games which doesn't really make them merchandise...

VikingBoyBilly · Post by **VikingBoyBilly** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:08

Bubbatom wrote:I don't think there was ever any strategy guides or merchandise keen related that was sold apart from that watch that came with keen 6.

A keen watch?

Me want!

Paramultart · Post by **Paramultart** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 17:19

MortimerInBlack wrote: Is that the red piece of paper with a bunch of hints and cheats on it? I have it somewhere, but probably it is packed away as I'm about to move. Maybe in a week I'll find it.

That would be very interesting to see.

I'm surprised this stuff hasn't been scanned and thrown on the Keen Wiki yet.

I am very interested to see if the hints paper says anything about the Cave of Oblivion. Please get back to us when you find it.