source code found?

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Gridlock
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Post by Gridlock »

I sure hope Tom and everyone involved follows through in getting this source code out. At this point, I really have no idea what to expect, but I sure hope it can remove some of the limitations like Ceilick said.

I'm hoping some of these changes could make development of large mods like Atroxian Realm easier. I'm definitely struggling with the limits of things like tileset space, memory, text boxes, and # of levels, and some more flexibility would make things much easier for me. I imagine lemm and other programmers in the community will have their hands full for a while, but hopefully we'll eventually get to a place where programming enemies and other object behaviors becomes much simpler.

I suppose all these things are just going to take patience.
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Armageddon Begins Again. The Alphamatic has arrived.

Atroxian Realm: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3536
The Alphamatic: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4086
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Roobar
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Post by Roobar »

Modding within limitations is fun
So people here tend to like limitations? Is that the reason why the so much advanced keengine is almost abandoned and is not popular and nobody is interested in working on/with it?
Last edited by Roobar on Sun Sep 15, 2013 19:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Nospike
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Post by Nospike »

As advanced as it might be, it's still a fangame and differs from the original Keens in terms of gameplay. If the source code is released though, it might be possible to create an almost perfect Keen port for all platforms.
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Roobar
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Post by Roobar »

That's not the point. The point is, if more people were working on it, then it could have become more close to the original gameplay, but with much more other benefits.
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Nospike
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Post by Nospike »

People are still going to notice small differences that might make them play the original games instead. You can imitate them, but you can't duplicate them. It feels different, too.
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Post by Roobar »

Sometimes some differences can be better and considered as an improvement. But whatever.
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Post by Ceilick »

This is getting beyond the scope of this thread. If you want to discuss the keengine and why it isn't being utilized, start a new thread.
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Post by Dynamo »

Ceilick wrote:I think it's ultimately better that our limitations not be predefined by the code, but by what we want to accomplish.
Exactly. Sorry for the short post but that simply nailed it.
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lemm
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Post by lemm »

Working in 16-bit real mode is enough of a limitation. :helmet The ultimate challenge is ensuring that your mod plays smoothly on an actual 286/16 Mhz EGA system, as this was the challenge that Id faced in 1990. In my opinion, as long as it uses the majority of the Keen Galaxy "engine", which is the physics, the graphics, and the sound and timing code, it's still a "keen mod." (This makes Bio-Menace a Keen mod, albeit a fancy one).

I don't think it's "the end of patching." There is still something to be said about Keenrush-style mods where one patch is creatively used to significantly alter the gameplay. Having said that, I think Galaxy mods usually fall on the other end of the continuum, where the modder is looking to produce a game rather than to play the patching game.


Back on topic, cool things we could do.

Change behaviours:

The physics and the Keen behaviours, which were really time consuming (if not impossible) to modify, can be easily altered now. We could add in new keen behaviours, such as, 8-Directional shooting, hand-hanging, crawling, etc. Maybe you could pilot a bipship instead of controlling keen.


Changing hard-coded limits.

A lot of limits were defined in the code (number of graphics chunks, number of levels, number of songs, and so on). Now we can easily change all of that.



Graphical Effects:
1) Add parallax backgrounds in.
2) Palette swaps (lightness, darkness) and cycling animations.
3) More support for 256-color patches.
4) Multiplayer (Coop) mode. :foot
5) "Street fighter" style keen, where there's an added depth dimension
6) Finally use those 32-pixel tiles for something.
7) Mix in the paging system from Wolf3D.


I noticed that Adam Biser commented on Tom Hall's Facebook picture photo. Maybe he might even modify WDC for use with Keen :)

And of course, porting to a modern OS (i.e., Chocolate Keen 4-6) can be done too. :freud


EDIT: I really must make an effort to use more emotikeens when I post. :p
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Post by Levellass »

I'm still sticking with patching; I make mods for the joy of patching and pushing limits. Without those limits it's like running a race where everyone comes first. If I wanted to do that I'd switch to game maker.

The physics and the Keen behaviours, which were really time consuming (if not impossible) to modify, can be easily altered now. We could add in new keen behaviours, such as, 8-Directional shooting, hand-hanging, crawling, etc. Maybe you could pilot a bipship instead of controlling keen.
I've patched up crawling and hand hanging, no need for 8-directional shooting, though that's pretty easy too. But a Bipship? Seriously?

Now, if we could work out those switches and door codes...

I'm hoping some of these changes could make development of large mods like Atroxian Realm easier. I'm definitely struggling with the limits of things like tileset space, memory, text boxes, and # of levels, and some more flexibility would make things much easier for me. I imagine lemm and other programmers in the community will have their hands full for a while, but hopefully we'll eventually get to a place where programming enemies and other object behaviors becomes much simpler.
I'm working on 40+ levels and a few dozen text boxes. Tileset space is a bit of a problem but it's memory that gets me.
What you really need, not what you think you ought to want.
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Post by Bernie »

i agree with Sarah 'Genius' Levellass to an extent, but its pretty hard to pass up:
1) Add parallax backgrounds in.
2) Palette swaps (lightness, darkness) and cycling animations.
3) More support for 256-color patches
but yeah, if people do implement these things then you'll just end up with gamemaker or some other engine in the end.
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Post by DoomJedi »

As a member of Wolf3D modding community - it's interesting to watch this discussion.
If you want to peek into the future of this discussion - look into evolution of Wolf3D modding and engine, after the source was released.

And yes - some people will make patches, some won't...some will do more advanced mods, even to challenge some more modern games, engines and platformers, and do large TCs - and some will keep doing great classic oldschool Keenish mods...it'll add more members to the community, more variety of projects, more options...it's not newschool vs oldschool - each style of mods has it own charm, it's own fans, and can be great or suck in the same way.
And there is still a limitation that will be, as this is indeed what we love.
But it'll be more a limitation of our own creativity - with time - many tutorials will come, limitations go away, it's a natural progression and you can't stop it....but can always be recreated as limitations...noone limit anyone to limit himself.
Last edited by DoomJedi on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Levellass
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Post by Levellass »

Well said.


Though I think the 'more members' will be '3 members'.
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Post by StupidBunny »

We're going to end up like the Doom forums where half the threads are arguments between ZDoom fanboys who say classic maps are tired and boring and stalwart purists who say ZDoom maps are gimmicky and overwrought. Pretty excited for that.
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Post by DoomJedi »

StupidBunny wrote:We're going to end up like the Doom forums where half the threads are arguments between ZDoom fanboys who say classic maps are tired and boring and stalwart purists who say ZDoom maps are gimmicky and overwrought. Pretty excited for that.
I think Doom is not a comparison or aim you should use.
This will be closer to Wolf3D modding than Doom one.
And I never heard such conversation on Wolf3D modding forums. Advanced and classic mods are respected the same way (and in both areas abviously there are bad and good mods)- as long as artist shows vision, planning, good mapping, attention to detail, interesting plot etc.....
Coding features by itself can't make a mod to be good. Mods that put in "all they know to code in, just to have bunch of features" - usually suck. I love Wolf3D mods that make use of those coding features that fit their style, theme, plot, particular gameplay....that I felt like chosen and filtered - and not just "all the tutorials I know I'll put in this one - and people will probably loved it".
Saw many crappy mods with lots of features, and alot of amazing mods with barely to none coding features.
You can't buy or "featurize" or fake quality and true creativity, vision, planning, design....

Yes, after source code release probably SDL source will come soon, and Keen will be easier to code and play on modern comps. Then tutorials will start coding.
This is exciting....and I think more than 3 people will join Keen modding...after community will start showcasing some cool creations.
I think there is no good moddable 2D platformer engine nowdays, and people will just love to jump on the opportunity, into a game with such legacy. With some modifications, this can be made into even partly 3D-ish style engines (like "Street of Rage" one), or allow 2D racing and gaming of other styles in 2D....
Last edited by DoomJedi on Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:38, edited 1 time in total.
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