The Keys of Krodacia: Revision Discussion

You can discuss anything about fan-made Commander Keen games here.
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SupKeen
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Post by SupKeen » Thu Jul 17, 2014 15:47

Unofficially, I made some changes to learn to use editing tools (I'm a rookie)

New Version:
https://sites.google.com/site/suppawer/ck/keen7.zip

Bugs fixed:
-Stone Temple
https://sites.google.com/site/suppawer/ck/ck702.png

-Map:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ett2zgSWKio

-Main Screen- Only I deleted "unofficial":
https://sites.google.com/site/suppawer/ck/ck701.png

:)

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Post by jayo » Fri Jul 18, 2014 22:03

Gridlock wrote:As far as I'm aware, this revision is not being worked on at all. I don't think Ceilick has time for Keen right now.

If I can finish Atroxian Realm in a timely manner, I might consider stepping up to do some of these revisions (with Ceilick's permission, of course). As much as we'd all like to see an improved version of the game, I'm not sure the community has the time and resources to make it happen right now. But hey, it's always fun to discuss ideas.
Well, whenever either of you does get a chance, I do have some suggestions. For one thing, the story needs revising. The story is suggested to take place from right after they returned to Earth after the events of Babysitter. Which of course, they had to get home before Billy's parents did, so I think the Ep 7 story should be that they went back to Earth, then, the next day or a few days later, Keen goes to Mortimer's house to find some more info.

I know we've all complained of some of the music, so maybe some unused Atroxian Realm songs would be ideal... ;)

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szemi
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Post by szemi » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:22

I'd pick up the Keen 7-9 revision project as I have the most time to mod Keen + I have "neat" ideas for the revision + others. (No, no drastical changes, but updates.)

At least let me try or something.

(Ok, Keen 11 and 12 is still there to finish, but I'd generously do the revision for the community + like I said I have the most time to mod Keen every day.)
Yeah, piece of cake!

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Post by biffstudly » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:45

szemi wrote:I'd pick up the Keen 7-9 revision project as I have the most time to mod Keen + I have "neat" ideas for the revision + others. (No, no drastical changes, but updates.)

At least let me try or something.

(Ok, Keen 11 and 12 is still there to finish, but I'd generously do the revision for the community + like I said I have the most time to mod Keen every day.)
I am so torn between wanting to see this happen more than anything, and never wanting to see this ever.

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Post by KeenRush » Tue Jul 29, 2014 19:55

I think others' projects should be left alone -- unless you're making a level pack for a mod but that's different anyway. Improving someone else's mod doesn't make any sense to me. What one might think as improvements might go totally against whatever the original author wanted. Plus it confuses new players. Once a mod is released it's done -- that's my view. You don't add new sentences to a book or new guitar riffs to a rock album. Everyone should just focus on new projects. :)
My newest mod - Planet Of Agony: https://pckf.com/viewtopic.php?t=4165 | codename H.Y.E.N.A.

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szemi
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Post by szemi » Tue Jul 29, 2014 20:07

KeenRush wrote:I think others' projects should be left alone -- unless you're making a level pack for a mod but that's different anyway. Improving someone else's mod doesn't make any sense to me. What one might think as improvements might go totally against whatever the original author wanted. Plus it confuses new players. Once a mod is released it's done -- that's my view. You don't add new sentences to a book or new guitar riffs to a rock album. Everyone should just focus on new projects. :)
Tell this to SupKeen as well, who has made a "New Version". (I said it in good meaning.)

And anyway what I said was an idea, so I won't pick up the revision by force! I'm not violent. But then why did SupKeen made an unofficial "revision"? He isn't allowed either!
Yeah, piece of cake!

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Roobar
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Post by Roobar » Tue Jul 29, 2014 20:18

KeenRush wrote:I think others' projects should be left alone -- unless you're making a level pack for a mod but that's different anyway. Improving someone else's mod doesn't make any sense to me. What one might think as improvements might go totally against whatever the original author wanted. Plus it confuses new players. Once a mod is released it's done -- that's my view. You don't add new sentences to a book or new guitar riffs to a rock album. Everyone should just focus on new projects. :)
Oh really? *cough* *cough* Yorphius II Deluxe *cough* *cough*
KeenRush wrote:Great work! This looks like what the original maybe should have been.
KeenRush wrote:I'm 5 levels in, this gives me a good reason to replay this mod.
KeenRush wrote:Good to hear people are liking this; thanks to tulip this way the mod finds some new life and players who haven't dared to touch this before because of my not so solid artistic efforts of that time. I did my very best but I just wasn't good enough. Embarrassed
KeenRush wrote:I'm starting to get all kinds of ideas in my head now. Dead Again

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szemi
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Post by szemi » Tue Jul 29, 2014 20:39

Yeah, Yorphius II Deluxe. *cough* :) Agree, wiivn. ;)
Yeah, piece of cake!

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Post by KeenRush » Tue Jul 29, 2014 22:22

:o I did not even for once think about that. And it doesn't matter -- that was my opinion that day, not today. Also, my comments were self-deprecating -- I don't think Yorphius II needed that Deluxe to become playable or anything. Nice as tulips effort was, I still would have liked to see a new mod from him over that Deluxe. ;) And graphical remake is sort of a gray area -- he did nothing else, he only improved the graphics. If he had changed story (so-called), modified levels, etc. -- I wouldn't have liked that at all.

And of course, YII looks a bit crude. I didn't have much or any artistic skills. But do you (szemi) have pixel-artistic skills to take Keen 7-9 graphics to another level? :confused Personally I think only Bernie and Doomjedi here might be capable of that.

And last, Keen 7-9 are probably the most widely-known, most celebrated Keen mods out there (unlike YII, which was basically forgotten right after XkyKeen1 appeared). I don't think they particularly need changes. Really -- why do you want to change them? If you really want to improve something you might improve something that might benefit from it, like the Norp mods, for example.

Most importantly, I'd rather see new work like that Keen Meets The Meats mod I've heard about... :dopekeen
My newest mod - Planet Of Agony: https://pckf.com/viewtopic.php?t=4165 | codename H.Y.E.N.A.

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szemi
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Post by szemi » Tue Jul 29, 2014 22:44

Keen Meets the Meats is in progress as well, but now I'm focusing on Keen 11 (+ Keen 10 re-release). :)
Yeah, piece of cake!

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SupKeen
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Post by SupKeen » Wed Jul 30, 2014 0:33

szemi wrote:I'm focusing on Keen 11 (+ Keen 10 re-release). :)
I have a few suggestions (PM) :)

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Gridlock
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Post by Gridlock » Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:52

I think others' projects should be left alone... Improving someone else's mod doesn't make any sense to me.
This reminds me of a point Syllypryde brought up some time ago. It really does spark an interesting debate about whether retcons actually improve something or just ruin it. If it was any other mod than TUIT, I think most people would be content to leave it as it is. Keen 7 is still a fantastic mod, after all.

However, given that most Keen fans have come to accept Ceilick's trilogy as the The Universe is Toast, there are certain higher standards that tend to be applied, especially when compared to Keen 8 and Keen 9. Given that these two mods go much farther in altering the source material, they make Keen 7 seem a little primitive in comparison. At times, Keen 7 is still in the shadow of Keen 4 with nearly-identical enemy behaviors, a lack of music, similar graphics (especially the world map), similar game progression, etc.

I think it becomes a question of nostalgia vs consistency. Would Ceilick's TUIT trilogy benefit more from leaving Keen 7 in its original state as a time capsule or from making improvements to bring it up to the level of the original games and make it more appealing to new players. That question is ultimately up to Ceilick to decide.

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, we already have the original if we don't like updates made in a new version. I think many in the community have shown that they would be excited to see updates made to this game. At the very least, it would certainly keep things lively and interesting on the forum. I sure do enjoy imagining all the untapped potential in TKoK.
Image
Armageddon Begins Again. The Alphamatic has arrived.

Atroxian Realm: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3536
The Alphamatic: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4086

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szemi
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Post by szemi » Wed Jul 30, 2014 21:19

For Keen 7 revision I have a level idea, kinda like a Galactic Zoo, where you can see all of the single characters from the previous episodes.

Why? http://dosclassics.com/forum_post.php?id=208
"Joe Siegler also had this to say about Keen 7...

When I asked which characters he said would be back from the original Keen games, he replied "All of them - a level Idea I had was that in the first level, you'd have every single character from all of the previous Keen games in there all at once - sort of a Galactic Zoo type of thing. Then I'd start introducing new stuff after that." Whether or not Tom actually uses this idea or not, you can tell he was thinking on a grand scale."

(Of course I know during the game you can see pictures of every single characters from the previous games, but for a revision Galactic Zoo would be good, too, but it's just an idea.)
Yeah, piece of cake!

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Post by Levellass » Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:31

The big question is how you approach the project. Are you seeking to 'improve' something? To 'take it to the next level'? Or do you seek instead to correct flaws other have noted, deal with limits that were present at the time?

Are you making it your own by reinterpreting it the way you want it or are you mere enhancing what is there? I think an 'improvement' on TUIT would not be popular as, as noted, fans see this as the 'official' TUIT, something whose vision should not be altered.

Fixing limitations would be received more warmly.
What you really need, not what you think you ought to want.

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szemi
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Post by szemi » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:19

Well, I'd improve Keen 7 very much if I was allowed. Why?

I love Keen 7 itself, but to be honest it's (too) Keen4ish (if you get what I mean).

Keen 8: Well, it should have an in-game help like Keen 10 has, so it wouldn't be bad thing.

Keen 9: I'd bring it to Keen 10 as it follows that. I'd put Keen 10 preview pictures in and update some (I repeat, some only!) things.
Yeah, piece of cake!

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