New Commander Keen

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Roobar
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Post by Roobar » Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:18

GARGapplesauce wrote:Hmm the new tileset is nice to see, it looks cool... the only thing that bugs me is the lack of outlines in the foreground/background... it makes the sprites stand out in a rather unattractive way...
Do you mean something like this:
Image

Without the borders for comparison:
Image

Well, I'm not sure about the solid ground borders... They're still looking good, but a bit uglier? But with the borders now, Keen stands better.

What I'm trying to achieve without the borders are some unique scenery settings and thus bring something new to the Keen. I'm not exactly trying to or can achieve the exact Keen feel all the time.

Heck, I can include both of the styles in the tileset. I've got plenty of space since each tileset is a different file unlike in original keens, where all different tileset worlds are in one tileset. :crazy
Last edited by Roobar on Thu Sep 22, 2016 14:12, edited 1 time in total.

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kuliwil
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Post by kuliwil » Sun Oct 16, 2011 13:31

This really is beautiful.

I'd argue for something in between the two. The one with no outlines just makes Keen look like he's standing on a picture, and the dark lines makes it look like the background is more unrelated.

Maybe a mid-green border might be appropriate, just to give the grass definition whilst still looking part of the scene?

EDIT: On second thoughts, I don't really see too much wrong with the no border one.
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GARGapplesauce
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Post by GARGapplesauce » Sun Oct 16, 2011 13:40

Yeah, the border one is what I meant... it doesn't have to be done, and what kuliwil said it always an option. Additionally, i don't have too big of a problem with the no borders either, i just thought it made keen stand out oddly. Whatever you want, it looks great either way.
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Nospike
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Post by Nospike » Sun Oct 16, 2011 14:03

Well, I think this problem could be easily fixed by editing the keen sprite or making a new one, which would also possibly fix some future graphic issues.
It just might be done someday. The chance is always there.

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kuliwil
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Post by kuliwil » Sun Oct 16, 2011 17:49

Nospike wrote:Well, I think this problem could be easily fixed by editing the keen sprite or making a new one, which would also possibly fix some future graphic issues.
Image

</KeenConservatism>

You might be on to something. You talking complete overhaul or borders?
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Roobar
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Post by Roobar » Sun Oct 16, 2011 19:35

Well I'm onto something, but I haven't decided yet. Yes, I could change the character, but that means a lot of other things to be changed too. For example almost all of the purple tileset objects, enemies and pick up items. They are with black borders. In order to use a Keen replacement and the removed border version means also to redraw a lot of stuff.

Sonic the hedgehog for example, has never been with black borders and nobody complained about it. He is well defined with darker edges where needed and is well visible in all kind of environments. So eventually Keen could get a complete overhaul, but not more than 32 pixels in height, which could be an issue...

Because in order to avoid borders and achieve good looking character, I think its size should be changed to something bigger. Like 50x25 or something. With bigger size, even black borders won't be notable (Jazz Jackrabbit). But that is unless the game is in true 640x480 with 32x32 tileset which isn't the case. I've tried to make bigger Keen and a 32x32 version, but the game simply fails without reprogramming it.

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Post by Ceilick » Sun Oct 16, 2011 21:10

The bordered version is definitely more in line with the original Keen style, but it doesn't grind well with the background (which would need some black outlines as well).

That said, the no outline version does look pretty nice, with the exception of Keen sticking out.

Some options you might consider:
Half-border:
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i156/ ... border.png
Half-border with shading:
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i156/ ... border.png

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Post by guynietoren » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:38

Yeah my sprites are way too large for that, but they aren't finished yet either.
Are you planning on keeping Keen with EGA colors with a VGA or SVGA background?

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Roobar
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Post by Roobar » Mon Oct 17, 2011 17:21

Ceilick that's great!

@guynietoren: I very much like what Ceilick shows with Keen. Now I see better how to continue from now on. I'll make something like this with Keen. I might even add some albino skin color to it and that will do it for the next version. Keen stands better with the background, which gives me hope that I could go without the borders version tiles too, so I can draw whatever I like as a scenery environment. I'm not promising that all the levels will be uniquely drawn. That would require a lot of time to do. Only parts of them. Most of them will be regular keen style. I've also not abandoned the borders. But it's too early to talk about all that.

As for the backgrounds, unless someone is willing to make them more "pixelated", "shaded" and "keenish", I'll leave them in SVGA. This current one isn't finished yet. Will work on it later. Lots of ideas and lot of stuff to do (which isn't necessary a good thing :crazy). Will see how the things goes. I'll concentrate on the tileset now.

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Post by RoboBlue » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:20

I think the Keen sprite should be completely redrawn, with a pastel or cel-shaded look. It's not like Keen hasn't had design changes before. :dead2
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Post by tulip » Tue Oct 18, 2011 21:35

now this looks brilliant. if the level design holds up with the quality of that screenshot this could be the new king of fangames (and if it's completed anyway)
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Gridlock
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Post by Gridlock » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:22

I am opposed to the changing of outlines or anything else in the Keen sprite. Some projects aim to make a completely new-generation Keen look, but the levels I've played so far for this definetly try to keep the original Keen feel while stepping up the graphics a notch. In my opinion, any project attempting to capture the classic feel of Galaxy keen should leave the most recognizable elements like the Keen sprites alone. I would much prefer to see outlines on the backgrounds, as that was how the original games did it.

Maintaining a solid Keen feel akin to the original games while still adding all these new graphics will help please both diehard fans of the original and people that want something new. Let projects like Isis II venture into new style territory.

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Post by lemm » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:25

I think it's strange to have lots of foreground colours, but restrict the keen sprite to 16 only. It just seems to me like the classic keen sprite should be paired with the classic galaxy type platform set. I think you should keep the tiles with the black outline for that reason. Having said all of this, the foreground tiles look primitive enough to gel with the keen spriteset. I think as long as you don't use too many colours, the sprites won't clash too much with the tiles.

Looks really good so far! :D

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Post by kuliwil » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:48

I agree with Gridlock.

I know it's a lot of effort to do this, but can you make two sprites and offer the user a selection of the two at the game's start?

Another option is to just reshade the keen sprite, using gradients and such. Might lessen the jarring whilst keeping with the traditional keen sprite shape and colours.
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Post by K1n9_Duk3 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 22:21

kuliwil wrote:I know it's a lot of effort to do this, but can you make two sprites and offer the user a selection of the two at the game's start?
The sprites are being loaded from PNG files, so renaming or replacing the Keen sprite is possible. Choosing a sprite from within the game requires code changes, so I doubt we'll see that in the game.
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