Extra lives, in-level saving and cheat codes...

[Syllypryde]

Continued from the Commander Keen: Xmas 2010 thread in the release forum:

Yes, but that's rather like saying 'two button firing is meaningless when you have it turned off, turn it on and see how useful it is'; what you're saying is that the game should be played under a self imposed challenge; by as it were not doing something you could do. Which rather defeats the point of anything.

So I don't see what anyone would lose by removing the lives system entirely, or maybe replacing it with a death count system. (Heck, even different endings depending on how often you died... hmmmnnn...)

Me personally, I like the extra lives. What is wrong with a self-imposed challenge? Let me rephrase, what is wrong with showing some self-discipline? Just because in-level saving and cheat codes are available does not mean you have to gleefully abuse them. For example, right now I have 2 gallon tubs of ice cream in my freezer. Just because they are available to me does not mean I have complete eat both of them within an hour! I eat them in moderation. The in-level and cheats can be used in moderation.

Then again, why should I care whether or not you abuse the in-level saving and cheat codes? You are only robbing yourself out of the fun oplaying Commander Keen. Just like all the jockstraps who loved the Grand Theft Auto series, but stopped playing the games because they were "too easy!" Of course they were too easy! You amoebas cheated throughout the entire game! When I actually confronted a few of these people and I told them to start the game over and play it without cheating they are refused! Of course they refused! Because not a single one of them are smart enough to figure out how to really play and beat a game!

I find it truly pathetic to watch guys walk around acting like bad-asses, bragging they are the "video game masters". You name a video game, they have beaten it and no one it better at video games than they are! But in reality, the only reason these Emmy Award winners ever beat games is because they cheat in practically every game they play! You will also notice most of these guys will only play 1-player games as well. You put them into a multiplayer game where they cannot cheat and have to play by the same rules as everyone else, these "video game masters" become "chumps." They cannot stand to lose so they cheat and then have the audacity to bitch the game is too easy and blame everything and everyone else that the game is no fun, when they really have no one to blame but themselves.

I am not impressed by people who gleefully cheat throughout an entire game and then cry like bitches that the game was too easy! Anyone can cheat. But it takes a real player to beat a game the way it was intended to be played. Changing the dynamics of Commander Keen does nothing in the long run. First of all, anyone who prefers to cheat will find a way to do so, no matter how cheat-proof you design a game. Secondly, it should not be necessary to redesgin a game to discourage people from cheating. Besides, anyone who feels they have to cheat in every game they play is not a serious player, and certainly not someone we should take seriously or pay any attention to. As I stated in an earlier paragraph, they are only robbing themselves from the fun of the game.

For the record, I am not saying that using in-level saving is automatically cheating. Occasionally, I have swallowed my pride and done so. Also I am not automatically ruling out the possibility of a Keen Mod where extra lives are gone and you have save checkouts, or you are only awarded your points and lives AFTER you have completed the level. It might interesting to see how that works in Commander Keen.

Also, Levellass, I am not accusing you of being one of the people I mentioned above. You do not seem to like the dynamics of Commander Keen as far as lives and saving go. As the queen of patching, maybe soon you can design a mod where the game is patched for the dynamics you prefer. Now that I think of it, there are already mods that have no extra lives and no in-level saving. (Keenrush's mods are a textbook example here). In Episode Smile, the point values are so low it is impossible to earn an extra life at all. In Fall Up, lives and game overs are completely eliminated. You play until you win (of course that is easier said than done in this mod.) But I am guessing you want to see a galaxy game that may contain these features.

CKeen, you and others may have issues with the extra lives and in-level saving, but I like Commander Keen just the way it is.

Patrick

[Commander Spleen]

Cheating and in-level saving are a different matter entirely to the lives issue.

Observe the system Mondochrome uses. This is how I would prefer Keen games to work. The simple matter is that having points linked to extra lives can allow you to create an infinite score, thus defeating the purpose of having a high score list at all. In this way, IMKO, we've all been robbed of part of the experience of playing Commander Keen from the very start.

Actually, I used to cheat through all the Keen games once I discovered the cheats. And the copy of Keen 6 I had came with a trainer that provided infinite lives and ammo--it was ages before I found how to get around it so I could find out what the game over sequence looked like (so so disappointing). My skills were insufficient at the time to get very far through Keen 2 or any of the Galaxy games. I think I may have played it a lot less around that time if the cheats remained a mystery.

I still haven't completed any Galaxy game without in-level saving. I can't say it's taken a lot out of the experience, but one day maybe I'll try it.

[guynietoren]

Yes. In game saving itself dramatically reduces the difficulty of the game as well as eliminating the need for lives. To me it feels like cheating to use it. Sadly I'm not skilled enough to do without it.

I did enjoy how Mondochrome's point system worked. Where dying in level removes the points you gained during that level. It gives you a readily available difficulty adjustment so you can beat the game without trying out the hard areas for extra points. It also removed a life limit so I didn't need to save as often.

[MrBlack]

I agree that the whole lives system in games is a bit outdated in a lot of the games it's implemented. In many games I can think of off the top of my head, it's so easy to get enough lives that you'll never have to worry about losing them all.

The thing is, free life collectibles are usually used as a reward for extra exploration or extra challenge... in my opinion they're not a good enough reward because they're not actually useful. I'm much more a fan of visible/realistic goals that reward you for that extra effort you put in. If a game like Super Mario 64 replaced every free life with "Collectible A" that had no effect, but there was an extra star in each world for finding every Collectible A (and maybe you were informed how many were in each level) then I'd be way more inclined to go get them. Think of the Tribals in Jet Force Gemini if anyone's familiar with that game.

I think of it as a similar style to achievements in games. They are extra goals there that you don't have to achieve but can if you want to test yourself and put in the extra effort. We all know how many games use achievements now.

This is why I've included the "One Ice Cream and one Flask per level" in my Keen4 levelpack. The way I see it, the only goal in Keen is to get through the levels because no one cares about points (as Commander Spleen said, you can simply get infinite points defeating the purpose of high scores). By presenting two visible goals/extra challenges (get the Ice Cream/find the Flask) you can get a bit more out of the game besides just finishing all the levels.

[Syllypryde]

....This is why I've included the "One Ice Cream and one Flask per level" in my Keen4 levelpack. The way I see it, the only goal in Keen is to get through the levels because no one cares about points (as Commander Spleen said, you can simply get infinite points defeating the purpose of high scores). By presenting two visible goals/extra challenges (get the Ice Cream/find the Flask) you can get a bit more out of the game besides just finishing all the levels.

I have to admit I do like Spleen's idea of setting up the game so the player is not rewarded their points and extra lives until after they completed the level. It does make extra lives and points more valuable. I remember when I played the fangame Real Keen Player 3 (it was bean over a year since I last played it) it had an interesting system for lives and in-level saving. If I remember right it had savepoints in each level, but you could not indefinitely go back to them. Once you reached a savepoint you had 2-3 tries to complete the level. If you failed you lost a life and had to start over.

It might be interesting to see a Keen mod use a similiar feature. Instead of savepoints, you are allowed to save anywhere within the level, but you are limited to only 1 possibly 2 saves. Then from there you have 2-4 attempts to beat the level from that savepoint. Again, if you fail you lose a life and have to start all over again. Once you start all over again, you have the option of saving in-level again, but again only once to twice. This would eliminate people abusing the in-level saving.

Then again, I like having the ability to save in-level whenever I want despite the fact I rarely use it. Mostly, I use it for practice. I get to an area I am having trouble with and cannot get past, I use the in-level saving for practice. Once I am confident I can beat it, I start the level over (basically forcing Keen to commit suicide! ...lol) and try again to beat the level from start to finish without the in-level saving. As I have said before, there have been very rare occasions where I have swallowed my pride and completed a level using in-level saving. Here is a small list:

1. Pyramid of the Forbbiden on hard
2. Isle of Fire on hard
3. The Bloogdome on hard
4. Forest Skies on hard
5. The Warpcore on easy and normal

Two levels I was unable to complete EVEN with in-level saving!!!

1. Well of Wishes on hard
2. Cliff Hanger on hard

As I am going through BOTB on hard I just might have to swallow my pride once again and use in-level saving to complete Defense Tower Surth on hard.

As for finishing all the levels I also suspect many Keeners do not even do that! They basically play only the required levels (of course when you play a Keen game for the first time it is practically impossible to know which levels are required and which are not. This mostly applies to repeat plays). I play every available level in every game. Obviously when I completed TKOK on hard I had skipped Cliff Hanger (I guess skipped is a bad way of putting it. I literally tried 300+ times to complete this level with and without in-level saving and failed miserably). Since it was an optional level, I finally gave up, went to Reef and finished the game on hard. Since then I have probably tried an additional 300+ tries to complete Cliff Hanger on hard with and without in-level saving and STILL cannot do it!!!

I will admit that playing without in-level saving does create more stress and frustration then many or most Keeners are willing to handle. But I will also admit that the joy of completing a level far outweighs any frustration I had from repeat deaths.

Patrick

[Dynamo]

CKeen, you and others may have issues with the extra lives and in-level saving, but I like Commander Keen just the way it is.

I find the game to be fun with save games, and retarded without them in certain levels because of no checkpoints and die-in-one-hit. Isn't having fun what counts, anyway?

[Syllypryde]

I find the game to be fun with save games, and retarded without them in certain levels because of no checkpoints and die-in-one-hit. Isn't having fun what counts, anyway?

Are you having fun?

[MOM4Evr]

I find the game to be fun

[Levellass]

I'll just leave this here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... glessLives

Also: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneUpSampo
And: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... sandPoints for some discussion.


What I'd like to do is change the extra life system in some manner to do something different with the gameplay. At the moment they're really only important to those who show a little self discipline as it were, to me this means neither the extra lives nor the in-level savinga re being used to the full. If you save a lot in levels the lives become meaningless, if you don't, the in-level saving is meaningless. Some ideas I have running around are:

* Remove in-level score on death
* Remove ALL points on death
* Extra lives decrease game difficulty, death increases it (Now patchcble!)
* Extra lives let you shortcut through levels or unlock secret areas
* Extra lives or lack of deaths unlock a different ending

[MrBlack]

I'll just leave this here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... glessLives

Also: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneUpSampo
And: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... sandPoints for some discussion.


What I'd like to do is change the extra life system in some manner to do something different with the gameplay. At the moment they're really only important to those who show a little self discipline as it were, to me this means neither the extra lives nor the in-level savinga re being used to the full. If you save a lot in levels the lives become meaningless, if you don't, the in-level saving is meaningless. Some ideas I have running around are:

* Remove in-level score on death
* Remove ALL points on death
* Extra lives decrease game difficulty, death increases it (Now patchcble!)
* Extra lives let you shortcut through levels or unlock secret areas
* Extra lives or lack of deaths unlock a different ending

I've always wanted the "remove in-level score on death" at least.

[Dynamo]

I find the game to be fun with save games, and retarded without them in certain levels because of no checkpoints and die-in-one-hit. Isn't having fun what counts, anyway?

Are you having fun?

Yes.

edit: NINJA4Evr

[tulip]

* Extra lives decrease game difficulty, death increases it (Now patchcble!)

Ahahaha, oh man, not only will you die, next time you try you won't even have a chance because it will be even more unfair.
Now that's an idea only llass or llord could have had.

I can only say what I always do: nothing is useless in Keen the way it is now, it opens up choice. Sure if you use inlevel saving lives become redundant, but if you choose not to use it, you could only save between levels and lives would be come a bit more meaningful, up to the point where you try to beat the game without saving at all. There limited lives make it a lot more interesting than infinite ones. Sure the highscore issue is undeniable, but I'd rather say experience > scores.

[mortimer]

[Levellass]

Indeed, I believe that is what they did with Biomenace, start level saves only, but a health bar.