The Unofficial TUIT Revision Betas

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Syllypryde
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Post by Syllypryde » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:12

Ceilick wrote:Once you know the drills are there, sure, it's not very hard at all. But since A) the player will drop there 90% of the time, and B) the player has no way of knowing the drill placement until they've landed and probably died once. Ideally, a player should never have to die just to figure out how to approach an area. That's why the drills are going.
I understand what you are saying here, but I still disagree.
1) On the ledge that the yellow gem is found. Keen can drop down from almost anywhere from that ledge and miss the drills completely. Jumping off the right side of the ledge is where the drills become an issue. This is why I disagree with your 90% assessment because the player does not have to go down there.
2) The area where the drills are is in optional area anyway. No one has to go there just to get 1,000 points. But I do understand your point about a player having to guess and die just to know whether or not that area is safe. But since you have already made up your mind on removing the drills, there is no need to discuss it further, so let's move on.
I misunderstood the mountain problem, but it will be fixed in the next update. I've removed the upper path of that secret so that it can only be accessed from the spike room.
I can understand you changing this so the red gemdoor cannot be bypassed. This will also make Jotundra Mountains more challenging because in the harder skill levels, there are Bedheds placed in very small areas where it is difficult to move past them in such a confined space. These are rooms that are supposed to be blocked by the red gemdoor. These small rooms were easier to get to with the secret passage because Keen could enter these rooms from the top and Bedheds do not fly upwards making it easier to grab points once they fly down, which eliminates the risk of being killed. Or the rooms could be avoided altogether. Once the player is forced to use the red gemdoor and forced to climb up through those small confined spaces, the Bedheds have to be dealt with.
Pyry wrote:This same Prospector is blocking a switch you need to beat the level. Even if you manage to jump over it to get to the switch, you can't jump back over it for some reason. This could also be fixed by changing the ceiling.
You can jump back over it using a tap jump. Anyone who has played CK Guy's Keen 5 levelpack or any of Keenrush's mods are very familiar with the tap jump. To execute it you just barely tap on the jump key and then use the directional key in order to jump past the prospector. This will allow you to jump low enough to miss the ceiling. I will admit though that the tap jump can be difficult to execute and on certain keyboards, this jump can be next to impossible. The sensitivity of the keys varies from one keyboard to the next. On keyboards where you have to push the key almost completely down in order for the key to respond, this makes the tap jump very diffcult or even impossible.

In previous posts, I have already mentioned how to deal with the prospectors. You can manipulate them to jump and break into pieces in areas where it is easy to jump over them. In the screenshot you posted there are at least two places to do this. In one section there is a dip in the floor. The other section is farther to the right near where the switch is. In either place the prospector can easily be jumped over. But since Ceilick has already made up his mind to edit the ceiling one tile and since this is a very minor change, I do not see any reason to argue over it, so again, we will move on.
Pyry wrote:Sounds good. There are three last things for me to point out, but since they could be intentional, feel free to ignore them.........
It takes a while to kill the Shikadi Aggrolyte in this area since the platform Keen is standing on is so small. But maybe you're suppose to use the slanted part of the platform to pogo up to the bigger platform above.
At the top of the pole there is a longer stretch of floor and a switch there. The Shikadi can be shot up there. In fact, if you are an expert with the neural stunner, stunning the shikadi will be quite simple. Also if you quick enough, once the Shikadi climbs down, you can hurry up, flip the switch and get away before the Shikadi climbs back up. If you are really good, you can avoid the Shikadi altogether.
At the Warpcore, even though Keen can walk into Mortimer and not get hurt, Keen can still die if he collides with Mortimer while Mortimer is in his gun pointing pose. Is that suppose to happen?
This was intentional because if Mortimer's sprite was harmless to Keen, it made the battle with Mortimer too easy because all a player would have to do is stand on top of Mortimer and never have to worry about being shot.
As for the gun room in Defense Tower Surth, I have another suggestion for it that might make it easier but still challenging. Revert the change you made to the middle gun in normal mode, but replace the goplat with that red cylinder platform instead. The guns can shoot through it, but now you can take your time. You could also do something with that Vlorg in hard mode.
I agree with Grimson on this point, the goplat should stay. As for the Vlorg in hard mode, it is called hard mode for a reason. No attempts should be made to make hard mode easier, unless there are clearly areas that are impossible, but those of us who have completed hard mode can assure you this area is possible.
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Post by Grimson » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:52

At the top of the pole there is a longer stretch of floor and a switch there. The Shikadi can be shot up there. In fact, if you are an expert with the neural stunner, stunning the shikadi will be quite simple. Also if you quick enough, once the Shikadi climbs down, you can hurry up, flip the switch and get away before the Shikadi climbs back up. If you are really good, you can avoid the Shikadi altogether.
Indeed. Just because something is difficult, it shouldn't be altered. It's called challenge. Afterall, the Keen games were developed in the era of teeth-grindingly hardcore games like Castlevania, Metroid, Super Ghouls'n Ghosts and Contra (suppose you don't use Konami code). Still, in Galaxy engine you can save at anytime and anyplace, so I honestly don't see a problem with difficulty...
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Post by Duplex » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:33

Syllypryde wrote:I agree with Grimson on this point, the goplat should stay. As for the Vlorg in hard mode, it is called hard mode for a reason. No attempts should be made to make hard mode easier, unless there are clearly areas that are impossible, but those of us who have completed hard mode can assure you this area is possible.
I'm not asking Ceilick to remove the Vlorg in hard more. Here's how I have the gun room envisioned with the red cylinder platform for each mode.

Easy: The bottom three guns are enabled.

Normal: All of the guns in the room are enabled.

Hard: All of the guns in the room are enabled and you have to avoid the Vlorg.

There are several other options though. You could make it a series of red cylinder platforms in midair instead of one long one. You could also do the whole two go-plats thing from Keen 5's Gravitational Dampening Hub. That works too.

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Post by Syllypryde » Fri Oct 21, 2011 15:50

Pyry wrote:I'm not asking Ceilick to remove the Vlorg in hard more. Here's how I have the gun room envisioned with the red cylinder platform for each mode.

Easy: The bottom three guns are enabled.

Normal: All of the guns in the room are enabled.

Hard: All of the guns in the room are enabled and you have to avoid the Vlorg.

There are several other options though. You could make it a series of red cylinder platforms in midair instead of one long one. You could also do the whole two go-plats thing from Keen 5's Gravitational Dampening Hub. That works too.
So if I understand you correctly, you want to keep the activation of the guns and the Vlorg all the same? The only thing you want to change is to eliminate the goplat and put some tiny ledges for Keen to jump on? That would work, but I do think that makes things a little easier than it needs to be. Having one long ledge would make the gun room too easy because it would make the Mini-Vlorgs at the bottom useless because there would be little fear of falling to the floor and Keen's only obstacle would be to dodge the guns. Anyone who has played Gravitational Damping Hub on hard, Mortillery in Keen Asylum on hard and The Blog Labs in Aliens Ate My Babysitter... Again and can dodge all the guns with little trouble, then dodging the guns in that gun room would be way too easy for these people. I know that gun room is a bytch because I have trouble with it myself. But I like a challenge and I have no problem with how the level is designed.
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Post by Duplex » Fri Oct 21, 2011 16:26

How would two go-plats sound then? To be honest, I can get pass the gun room on normal mode, even before Ceilick disabled the middle gun. The main problem I have with it is, while the go-plat's speed remains the same, the timing of the guns change. Sometimes you can time your jumps on the go-plat to avoid the guns, other times you can't. It seems to depend on what position the go-plat happens to be in when you enter the room.

I don't mean to make it a big issue though. I'm the same guy who made that Keen 3 level pack to make the game easier. It is possible to beat all of the levels in the original Keen 3, but it does take a considerable amount of tries even for intermediate players. I'm not saying Keen 9 is that hard, but there are some areas that take a lot of saving and reloading.

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Post by Syllypryde » Fri Oct 21, 2011 19:15

Pyry wrote:How would two go-plats sound then? To be honest, I can get pass the gun room on normal mode, even before Ceilick disabled the middle gun. The main problem I have with it is, while the go-plat's speed remains the same, the timing of the guns change. Sometimes you can time your jumps on the go-plat to avoid the guns, other times you can't. It seems to depend on what position the go-plat happens to be in when you enter the room.

I don't mean to make it a big issue though. I'm the same guy who made that Keen 3 level pack to make the game easier. It is possible to beat all of the levels in the original Keen 3, but it does take a considerable amount of tries even for intermediate players. I'm not saying Keen 9 is that hard, but there are some areas that take a lot of saving and reloading.
I understand what you are saying. I will give you a hint about the guns. At the very beginning of the level, the guns all fire at the same rate. (This is usually true for all galaxy levels that contain guns.) The longer you spend in the level, the more the guns go out of sync. As strategy, the best thing to do is to go to that room as quickly as possible. The only thing that is of immediate concern is the yellow gem, which is required to open the door that leads to the gun room. Since you are going right back to where you started on your way to the blue gemholder, you can always get those points later, then worrying about them at the start. Once you get the blue gem and are ready to go back through it to go to the blue gemholder, the best thing to do then is to wait until the guns are firing alternatively, meaning all the top guns are firing at the same time, then in contrast, the bottom guns are all firing at the same time. I know this takes more patience then most of us have, but this way you know exactly when all the guns are going to fire, rather then entering the gun room at a random period of time, and then the guns are all firing at random intervals. That can make things quite difficult.

I looked into your Keen 3: Levels You Can Actually Beat at the time you released it. I liked what you did with it for the most part, especially with Hal's Kitchen and Caves of Oblivion. These were the only two levels I took issue with, so the other changes you made are hit and miss with me. Overall, I did like it, but most likely I will stick to Keen 3, or play Mr. Black's Keen 3 levelpack. He did a really good job with this levelpack and I am really looking forward to his Keen 4 levelpack whenever he gets it done.

No need to apologize for being "difficult." I do realize I am being hypocritical when it comes to this revision. As I feel people are "whining" about the game being "too hard" and want certain things changed, I am doing my own share of whining because I do not want Ceilick to change anything. But the reality is it is Ceilick's mod and he has every right to do with it what he sees fit. He has chosen to get some imput from the Keen community and that is really cool. So I am the one who also needs to make sure I do not make too many issues myself.

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Post by Duplex » Fri Oct 21, 2011 19:44

Syllypryde wrote:I looked into your Keen 3: Levels You Can Actually Beat at the time you released it. I liked what you did with it for the most part, especially with Hal's Kitchen and Caves of Oblivion. These were the only two levels I took issue with, so the other changes you made are hit and miss with me. Overall, I did like it, but most likely I will stick to Keen 3, or play Mr. Black's Keen 3 levelpack. He did a really good job with this levelpack and I am really looking forward to his Keen 4 levelpack whenever he gets it done.
Off-topic: Did you try the other Keen 3 level pack I made after "Levels You Can Actually Beat"? I restored some of the challenge the original Keen 3 had while still making it fair enough for intermediate players. If not, I'll just send you the download link.

On-topic: I don't mean to come across as demanding or anything. I don't really have that many complaints with it, I just want to help Ceilick ensure that version 2 will be even better. Keen 9 on its own already has everything I look for in a Keen game. All it needs is a few tweaks and it will rival my personal favorite, Keen 5.

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Post by Ceilick » Fri Oct 21, 2011 21:30

I definitely appreciate your input, even when I ultimately won't be taking some of your suggestions.

First Shikadi: It's a tough situation, but I can't stress enough just how 'hand crafted' that spot is. It's meant to catch the player off guard but still offers room to escape from the Shikadi and a couple of ways to get around him. I did remove this Shikadi from Easy mode, though.

Mortimer's Shooting Frames: As Syllypryde pointed out, this is to prevent the player from standing 'on top of' Mortimer, which would make it impossible for Mortimer to shoot them.

Gun Turret Room: I like this type of challenge. A lot. It is tough, but it is very satisfying to get through unscathed. Although I really do like the type of challenge you suggest, with the read platform stretching across and allowing the shots to go through still, I wouldn't change this one to include it. So no more changes here.

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Post by Duplex » Fri Oct 21, 2011 21:55

That's all fine. The thing with the Shikadi and Mortimer never had to change, and neither does the gun turret room. In fact, you can enable that middle gun turret again in normal mode if you want. That wasn't really the change I had in mind anyway. Besides, every Keen has to have "that moment" where great skill and dexterity is required.

You could always go with that double go-plat idea too, but again, it's just a suggestion.
Last edited by Duplex on Fri Oct 21, 2011 22:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Eros » Fri Oct 21, 2011 22:13

Ceilick wrote:I did remove this Shikadi from Easy mode, though.

Mortimer's Shooting Frames: As Syllypryde pointed out, this is to prevent the player from standing 'on top of' Mortimer, which would make it impossible for Mortimer to shoot them.
DDD: you removed the easy mode shikadi?! aww...

also, wouldn't the immortal killing mort sprite be changed by having the bullet spawn closer to the body? that way, if you're attacking him from the top, unless you're going the same direction his ammo is, you won't be killed by a silly death. Also, it makes people with low ammo stop complaining about how mort blocks attacks
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Post by Grimson » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:24

DDD: you removed the easy mode shikadi?! aww...
If you miss a challenge, why play on easy mode? ;)
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Post by Eros » Sat Oct 22, 2011 15:21

i don't play on easy anymore.

i'm just a little saddened that newbies will have to encounter an aggressive shikadi a bit further on from now on.
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Post by Syllypryde » Sat Oct 22, 2011 17:04

Eros wrote:i don't play on easy anymore.

i'm just a little saddened that newbies will have to encounter an aggressive shikadi a bit further on from now on.
AAMBA, and CK Guy's Keen 5 levelpack are the only games I ever play on easy. Keen 5 I especially never play on easy. I can get through it within 20-30min without losing a life. I play it on normal or hard.
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Post by Eros » Sun Oct 23, 2011 15:15

AAMBA i played on all three difficulty levels, and i completed medium, IIRC.
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Post by Syllypryde » Sun Oct 23, 2011 17:39

Eros wrote:AAMBA i played on all three difficulty levels, and i completed medium, IIRC.
I've played it on all three but did not get very far on hard.
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