Commander Keen in ... "Keen Meets the Meats"

DoomJedi · Post by **DoomJedi** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 17:04

szemi wrote:Moddb page:
http://www.moddb.com/mods/keen-meets-the-meats

First screenshots were added to the moddb page

Obviously they are as unrevealing as they can be, not to over-spoil.

Post by **Ceilick** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 19:47

I hate to be a downer here, but the slaughterhouse theme is unkeenish and really unbefitting to Keen Dreams, if this is indeed a sequel of sorts to that episode.

If Keenishness is desired, for a start, focus on grease over gore.

Nospike · Post by **Nospike** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 19:49

Noticed that too, there should be little to no blood.
The level on the screens looks very bland and sterile, I suggest adding detail tiles.

szemi · Post by **szemi** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 19:58

@Ceilick: ....

@Nospike: ....

DoomJedi · Post by **DoomJedi** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 20:20

Well, there gonna be blood in this one. Sorry, folks. Not "blood all over", but still.
A bit (!) discouraging feedback I have to admit. Kinda mood-killing. And we're working very hard on this.

He meets the Meats now, it's not all veggies anymore. Hard to decorate meat level without blood...or make meat-related themes and tilesets.

Nospike wrote:The level on the screens looks very bland and sterile, I suggest adding detail tiles.

Well, it's just that we didn't want to spoil the tileset

Our tileset is made to be (hopefully) as detailed as you would expect.

Nospike · Post by **Nospike** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 21:48

I understand the meat theme, there will be blood no matter what, but IMKO details like the blood splatters on Keen's helmet are unnecessary.

Paramultart · Post by **Paramultart** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 21:51

Well that's too bad, DJ. Personally, I love blood and guts; but I agree wholeheartedly with Ceilick and Nospike... it doesn't belong in a Keen game... especially not one that should fit the canon.

On top of the blood splatters, many elements of the title screen in general make it look kind of chaotic and unkeenish as well.

The tile-set could use a makeover as well.

Post by **Ceilick** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 21:56

DoomJedi wrote:Hard to decorate meat level without blood...or make meat-related themes and tilesets.

I'd draw your attention to bernie's drawing of attention to an example of how to approach the theme: viewtopic.php?p=65099#65099

A challenge with a limited color palette, to be sure, but the concept is there.

Edit: And yeah, Paramultart has it right, there is a certain 'baggage' you're picking up by using a semi-official title like "Meets the Meats", the same kind associated with TUIT. It'd be different if it was just some meat mod.

DoomJedi · Post by **DoomJedi** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 21:57

Nospike wrote:I understand the meat theme, there will be blood no matter what but IMKO details like the blood splatters on Keen's helmet are unnecessary.

Sound like a fair and valid feedback.

It's obviously not Keen's blood (he is not hurt), just probably splats from the meat....or it can be ketchup

We're dealing with fast food chain there (fries, ketchup and all...) So let's hope it's ketchup from hamburgers thrown at him

Our burgers have quite alot of Ketchup in it to cause such...as you can notice from the same Title Screen (flying burger)

...well, if people will have strong dislikes of this I guess {looking at Szemi}...maybe...we will consider removing them...but it's team decision I guess (?), or Szemi's. I'll remove it if asked to by the rest of the team.

szemi · Post by **szemi** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 22:14

DoomJedi wrote:
Nospike wrote:I understand the meat theme, there will be blood no matter what but IMKO details like the blood splatters on Keen's helmet are unnecessary.
Sound like a fair and valid feedback.

It's obviously not Keen's blood (he is not hurt), just probably splats from the meat....or it can be ketchup We're dealing with fast food chain there (fries, ketchup and all...) So let's hope it's ketchup from hamburgers thrown at him Our burgers have quite alot of Ketchup in it to cause such...as you can notice from the same Title Screen (flying burger)

...well, if people will have strong dislikes of this I guess {looking at Szemi}...maybe...we will consider removing them...but it's team decision I guess (?), or Szemi's. I'll remove it if asked to by the rest of the team.

We'll have to wait for Levellass as well whether she disagrees or not.
Whatever, I say those tiles won't be removed as those are cool and fit the story and what I wanted. DoomJedi made very good job with those, and like he said, that can be ketchup or meat splats.

DoomJedi · Post by **DoomJedi** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 22:31

Paramultart wrote:I love blood and guts

Well, me too

That's what made me to offer art assistance for this project.

On top of the blood splatters, many elements of the title screen in general make it look kind of chaotic and unkeenish as well.

Well, though an old Keen fan/veteran (and a huge one) - I'm relatively new to Keen arting and so might (?) still bring some Wolf3D "artstyle" leftovers to my Keen art... also the Butcher is made in my general caricaturistic artstyle.
Can't argue with your impression, but I might get more Keenish with time. But I hate doing Title Screens in general (for my Wolf3D mods as well) and am probably not the best at it. I did get better with tiles recently working on this mod, so at least some progress

The tile-set could use a makeover as well.

(Unless you just meant removing the blood)
What you see on the screens is not even 0.5% of the tileset, so I can't see where you bring this conclusion from, isn't it a bit rushed?
The art shown on those screens is mostly not my art, almost all of what is shown. Beside Title Screen and such....
Most of the tiles in this mod are (so far, and out of the big and detailed tileset we already have) my art, and so those screens doesn't bring a solid impression about the art style of rest of the mod. The platform type shown on the screens is just one of many platforms this mod has (it was there before I joined the mod), and is the only one (so far, and AFAIR) I didn't make myself - the rest of the (again: many) platforms (so far) are my platforms or concepts - and they are less simplistic than the one shown - but that one too has a purpose and a placed in the mod and I fully trust the rest of the team who made it.

Regarding the general idea in a mod - we went totally different direction, and don't expect Keen to jump on giant salame cuts. Despite it being a dream - we go with realistic designs here, like it's a real place....real factory or whatever, not without puns, but still. It's not that "crazy-dreamy", it's actually doesn't look much like a dream, beside meat-based enemies, heh

This is just our concept, and try to give it a chance. You just saw a few basic screens...We're not new to modding (none of the team members), and working hard and creatively on this. I'm sure we won't embarass the Keen community with this creation. We put our mind and soul into it.

StupidBunny · Post by **StupidBunny** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 22:51

The one thing I would wholeheartedly agree with is that the tileset and title screen could use some more color. Too much gray, especially undecorated or undetailed, can easily make levels look sterile and kinda depressing. It's nothing that's too hard to fix though.

And yeah, some background on the title might help to liven it up and tie things together a bit.

I'm not sure what to say about the blood thing. Like you and Ptart I like a bit of blood n' guts, especially in a darkly comical sort of way like this. I think the point they all make about "keenishness" is somewhat valid in this case, for the specific reason that its design is clearly meant to fit into the Keen series.

It rubs me the wrong way when any mod or fan project using Keen as a character can be condemned for un-keenishness, for daring to take a new direction or change the atmosphere a bit. I think that the community here is by and large pretty good about being able to keep an open mind to new takes on Keen's story, but there are always exceptions.

I dunno. I guess I'll have to say that in my opinion the blood as used here is still cartoony enough not to be too unkeenly (after all, we see Vortaninja blood right?), and that any unkeeniness here just comes from the dullness of the colors and tiles. I know it's a work in progress and I'm excited to see where progress takes you guys.

Post by **Ceilick** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 23:36

DoomJedi wrote:Regarding the general idea in a mod - we went totally different direction, and don't expect Keen to jump on giant salame cuts. Despite it being a dream - we go with realistic designs here, like it's a real place....real factory or whatever, not without puns, but still. It's not that "crazy-dreamy", it's actually doesn't look much like a dream, beside meat-based enemies, heh

Does this mean this is not intended as a sequel to Keen Dreams?

DoomJedi · Post by **DoomJedi** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 23:39

AFAIK it does.

Not all dreams have the same level of realism to them. It's not the same dream...a different one.

szemi · Post by **szemi** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 23:58

DoomJedi wrote:AFAIK it does.

Not all dreams have the same level of realism to them. It's not the same dream...a different one.

Amen!