Mods being too hard
Mods being too hard
As "an outsider" of a sort, being more involved in Wolf3D modding community than in this one - I have to say you make mods for hardcore Keeners only...and not all of them are.
Especially Vorticons mods are extremely hard.
I still can't pass level 2 in the Pluto mod, and didn't progress much in the Spot mod either....maybe again only 1 level...or 2....
Vorticons engine doesn't have skill levels, in-level saving, quickload I'm aware of - so each time I die I have to exit back to title screen and load the game all over. It's a real pain in the...youknowwhat.
After some time I just usually give up.
This is very frustrating, and why I can't enjoy fully amazing mods of this community, despite me wanting to.
Especially Vorticons mods are extremely hard.
I still can't pass level 2 in the Pluto mod, and didn't progress much in the Spot mod either....maybe again only 1 level...or 2....
Vorticons engine doesn't have skill levels, in-level saving, quickload I'm aware of - so each time I die I have to exit back to title screen and load the game all over. It's a real pain in the...youknowwhat.
After some time I just usually give up.
This is very frustrating, and why I can't enjoy fully amazing mods of this community, despite me wanting to.
Quite frankly, a lot of them are very hard. Truth is, I play most mods with savestates (a separate download for DosBox), as this allows me to appreciate the difficulty without the frustration. Admittedly designing mods with savestates in mind isn't the ideal situation, but there aren't many other options, especially in Vorticons with no in-level saving.
I'm not quite sure where that savestates download was, but I highly recommend it. I think it'll make mods a lot more accessible for you.
I'm not quite sure where that savestates download was, but I highly recommend it. I think it'll make mods a lot more accessible for you.
Armageddon Begins Again. The Alphamatic has arrived.
Atroxian Realm: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3536
The Alphamatic: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4086
The issue really goes beyond levels being 'intended' for hardcore keeners; as a level designer, it is just plain hard to make a level that isn't hard.
Level designers have goals of challenging the player, creating atmosphere, giving the player a variety of places to go, paths to figure out, and things to see. All these things get combined and compounded throughout levels and they just get hard without ever intending them to be.
Anyway, for existing difficult mods, Dosbox save states by ZenJu, as Gridlock mentioned, can make many mods much more enjoyable. You can get it here: http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=25274 Note: You will need to register on their forum to access the download link, I'll post the direct link here too: http://www.vogons.org/download/file.php?id=7863
Level designers have goals of challenging the player, creating atmosphere, giving the player a variety of places to go, paths to figure out, and things to see. All these things get combined and compounded throughout levels and they just get hard without ever intending them to be.
Anyway, for existing difficult mods, Dosbox save states by ZenJu, as Gridlock mentioned, can make many mods much more enjoyable. You can get it here: http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=25274 Note: You will need to register on their forum to access the download link, I'll post the direct link here too: http://www.vogons.org/download/file.php?id=7863
- VikingBoyBilly
- Vorticon Elite
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Keen's one-hit-wonder mechanic has a lot to do with it. As a result of that, it's very difficult to make a mod that meets the middle road between "sadomasochism" and "hallway with no challenges." It's also a lot easier for a modder to test their own maps than it is for someone playing them blind, adding more dissonance.
Funnily enough, the original keen 1 is probably the only one that got a perfect grasp of making fun difficulty. Even keens 2 and 3 were getting into the BattleToads Hard territory at some points.
Funnily enough, the original keen 1 is probably the only one that got a perfect grasp of making fun difficulty. Even keens 2 and 3 were getting into the BattleToads Hard territory at some points.
"I don't trust players. Not one bit." - Levellass
Try playing certain mods first if you don't want frustration, they're easier than Keen 2 and 3.
I recommend:
Vanished to Venus
Hiding From the Sky
Search for the Sentinel
Musical Keen
Lego Keen
Revenge of Mortimer
Episode X
If you get the hang of those you can try some of those, they're about Keen 2/3 level of difficulty:
Kidnapped Keen
Harvey's Mod
Story Land
Comrade Keen
Norp the Yorp
If you're easily discouraged keep away from these:
Return of the Gaurdians
Keen Q
Keen Z
The Last Moon
Onward: Silcar 3
Pretty much all of Shikadi, KeenRush, Levellord or Levellass
I recommend:
Vanished to Venus
Hiding From the Sky
Search for the Sentinel
Musical Keen
Lego Keen
Revenge of Mortimer
Episode X
If you get the hang of those you can try some of those, they're about Keen 2/3 level of difficulty:
Kidnapped Keen
Harvey's Mod
Story Land
Comrade Keen
Norp the Yorp
If you're easily discouraged keep away from these:
Return of the Gaurdians
Keen Q
Keen Z
The Last Moon
Onward: Silcar 3
Pretty much all of Shikadi, KeenRush, Levellord or Levellass
You crack me up little buddy!
- StupidBunny
- format c:
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As I dedicated more and more time to making different Vorticons mods, I definitely noticed them becoming proportionately more difficult...and indeed, my instinct was always to make the levels harder ("If it's boring for me, what will other people think!?") Course it's fair to say I may have overdone it sometimes, and I definitely understand that, for those not used to playing Vorticons mods, jumping into a project with huge levels and a razor-sharp learning curve probably would be discouraging. There certainly IS a happy medium between sadomasochism and hallways but without second opinions throughout the design process it can be a tough medium to meet.
This is the community that goes 'Aaah KeenRush has made another impossible, no literally impossible mod. Haha!'; I've tried making easyish mods and I can't say I've done so well.
I think it's like rich people who go 'Oh but 500K isn't *really* rich, after I pay off my two homes and the boat I have only a few thousand a week for entertainment!' KeenRush is sitting in his dungeon, the screams of the innocent echoing in his ears and going 'Fifteen 1-tile jumps in a row, simple enough!' And we agree! Our perceptions of what is and isn't easy have been irreversibly warped by decades of obsessive fandom. We even have Ceilick wondering about how to punish saving games.
I think it's like rich people who go 'Oh but 500K isn't *really* rich, after I pay off my two homes and the boat I have only a few thousand a week for entertainment!' KeenRush is sitting in his dungeon, the screams of the innocent echoing in his ears and going 'Fifteen 1-tile jumps in a row, simple enough!' And we agree! Our perceptions of what is and isn't easy have been irreversibly warped by decades of obsessive fandom. We even have Ceilick wondering about how to punish saving games.
What you really need, not what you think you ought to want.
Wolf3D has the same thing....Doom modding communities too...hardcore modders make games it's fun for them to play...and challenging...and so they get harder and harder.
But it's ok...the difference is - They have save/load in any given moment (including quicksave/quickload)... They have easy to activate cheats without special command lines...And they have health system...not touch&die....And they have skill levels!
Keen mods, and especially Vorticon mods - have none of this.
And lifes...is such an old concept...stupid one. Level restart is enough.
We are small modding community, that wants probably to be larger....but such mods push new Keeners away...and make this community more and more a hardcore bubble of modders.
But it's ok...the difference is - They have save/load in any given moment (including quicksave/quickload)... They have easy to activate cheats without special command lines...And they have health system...not touch&die....And they have skill levels!
Keen mods, and especially Vorticon mods - have none of this.
And lifes...is such an old concept...stupid one. Level restart is enough.
We are small modding community, that wants probably to be larger....but such mods push new Keeners away...and make this community more and more a hardcore bubble of modders.
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- Kuliwho?
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I'm going to forego my usual "if you don't like it, make something you do like and stop whining about other people's work" rant and leave you with one of the best fan-made creations that aren't stupidly hard out there: http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/The_Eight_Accumulators
Keening_Product was defeated before the game.
"Wise words. One day I may even understand what they mean." - Levellass
"Wise words. One day I may even understand what they mean." - Levellass
You want me to apologize I'm not a mapper? If I'm not a mapper I don't deserve complaining?Keening_Product wrote:I'm going to forego my usual "if you don't like it, make something you do like and stop whining about other people's work"
I'm a sprite artist. That's what I do - in both Wolf3D and modding communites. As such - I have no control or mapping difficulty of mods I work on. And you're free to complain about art of mods I do.
But it's ok - just openly say "don't play our mods, they are not for you and guys like you, we made them for hardcore Keeners only" - and I'll understand. That's legitimate. You don't HAVE TO make "easy" mod or mods for more general Keen-loving public. Noone tells anyone what mods to make.
I have been playing Keen since it came out, and after more that 20 years of Keening...and I'm still not worthy for skill level of your mods.
Last edited by DoomJedi on Mon May 19, 2014 16:17, edited 1 time in total.
There are very few mods who strike exactly the right difficulty level. Two that come to mind are Lego Keen and Shmaynoria.
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