Mods being too hard

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Keening_Product
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Post by Keening_Product »

I don't want you to apologise, I might have come across a bit harsher than intended. My point was something more like: I don't walk into an advanced maths class and pan the subject because I don't have the skills to do what everyone there is doing while ignoring a sea of easier maths classes.

I can't complete a lot of mods too, and I don't make them, though I will defend the volunteers who make well structured difficult mods because that's what they want to make. It's their time, and I don't have to play the ones I can't play. Where bad design makes things difficult then yes, constructive criticism should be made, but I don't see the point in complaining that a good mod is too difficult.
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Roobar
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Post by Roobar »

Sometimes its a dry season here, so in order to keep things alive, we need to digest this subject again.
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Post by Ceilick »

Keening Product wrote:...who make well structured difficult mods because that's what they want to make
To be fair though, I'm not sure many modders make their mods with the intention that they are difficult to the extent being discussed; that players would rather give up than continue to struggle, or difficult to the extent that only the best and most persevering players can win.

I don't think it's unfair to assume that modders want their mods to be accessible to those that want to play, although certainly not everyone's needs regarding level difficulty can be met at once.

And while it comes down to what the designer wanted to do, and certainly they can do whatever they want, we can still discuss the merits of designing with goal A vs goal B.
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Post by Benvolio »

DHeadshot wrote:strike exactly the right difficulty level
I think that the diverse range of difficulty levels is one of the good things about modding. There is always something to suit your mood - sometimes an exhilarating challenge is desired, whilst other times the brain wishes merely for some chewing gum. The world of modding is a better place for having this diversity.

I like to dip in and out of different difficulties - but a systematic approach such as that suggested by tulip is also a possibility. In making mods I also like this - there is a challenge in making a mod that is very difficult and yet retains its integrity. KeenRush is, needless to say, the true master of this. As long as a modder has adhered consistently with a chosen goal, and has achieved this, then his or her mod can take its rightful place in the hierarchy of mods and can receive respect from all those players who find it to their tastes.

On another note, I think there should be more frequent modding releases than there currently are. 2013 was a very productive year whilst 2014 has, certainly in Vorticons, been a slower one.
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Post by VikingBoyBilly »

Silcar4 even has the modern innovation of difficulty selection from the .bat file!

All you have to do to accomplish the same is to make 3 different versions of all of your levels and stuff them into the .zip, modders! Now go, chop chop! I want to see every mod ever created get re-released with easy and normal options. Hard mode will be the original levels unchanged, so you only have to remake every map you ever made twice. That's a reasonable request, no? :o
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Post by MoffD »

I have an idea! let's rate mods on various difficulties with jumps, enemies etc... so if someone wants a challenge with jumping but not bother with enemies as much they'll know which mod to play :) :) :)
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Post by Keening_Product »

That's a great idea MoffD. The cynic in me says people will get tired of rating quickly, like they got tired of the Keen Story and so on, but it IS a great idea.
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Post by VikingBoyBilly »

What is the Keen Story? :confused
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Post by MoffD »

VikingBoyBilly wrote:What is the Keen Story? :confused
http://keenstory.ueuo.com/
Currently as of writing at 61 pages
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Post by tulip »

MoffD wrote:I have an idea! let's rate mods on various difficulties with jumps, enemies etc... so if someone wants a challenge with jumping but not bother with enemies as much they'll know which mod to play :) :) :)
viewtopic.php?t=718

just sayin. 5 years ago omg
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Post by DHeadshot »

MoffD wrote:
VikingBoyBilly wrote:What is the Keen Story? :confused
http://keenstory.ueuo.com/
Currently as of writing at 61 pages
62 pages now, presumably thanks to your reminder :) . Also, in the mean time it has been retweeted by John Romero, so not exactly forgotten about...
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MoffD
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Post by MoffD »

DHeadshot wrote:
MoffD wrote:
VikingBoyBilly wrote:What is the Keen Story? :confused
http://keenstory.ueuo.com/
Currently as of writing at 61 pages
62 pages now, presumably thanks to your reminder :) . Also, in the mean time it has been retweeted by John Romero, so not exactly forgotten about...
62 due to my brother :dopekeen

Must... reach... 100
tulip wrote: viewtopic.php?t=718

just sayin. 5 years ago omg
Ahh... were it not for laziness, what accomplishments we as a community could achieve. :P
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Post by spikey »

I guess while I agree with the topic OP, I'm just glad that:

1. People make mods
2. I have a difficulty level to aspire to, rather than was said, a 'hallway'


Also, keep in mind how difficult Keen 2 and 3 were/are. I didn't find either particularly enjoyable. Even Keen 5 and 6 on hard are pretty brutal!
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Post by CapnClever »

Commander Keen's difficulty wasn't well-balanced in the official games. I kind of see this happening in development:

Problem: really easy to make game too hard
Solution: let player save anywhere

As a matter of making something that is "challenging", however, it's a cop-out. Players wanting to play casually probably feel a cheapened experience by save-scumming every tactical puzzle, and hardcore players are constantly frustrated by having to start all over again after succeeding in many ways and failing only once.

Having run Keens 1 through 3, both as quickly as possible and playing through every level, I honestly don't believe most individual levels to be too hard. Some require a good deal of patience to play through safely but, once you're good at controlling Keen, there aren't a lot of nasty situations that genuinely cause problems time and time again. I think playing through them for the first time just means stopping every so often and observing the area before continuing onward, and the end result can often be as good as playing as if you know what's coming up.

This doesn't mean that Vorticon games can't be excruciatingly difficult and, indeed, several I've played have been that way. (I did manage to beat Keen Smile, albeit with saves before each level: one day I'll go back and beat it legitimately.) On average, however, I've noticed that Vorticon levels tend to be smaller in terms of what has to be accomplished in order to finish a given level, and that fits nicely with not being able to save progress in those levels.

Galaxy games, however, tend to assume you can save anywhere, because the number of real challenges per level are far greater. Generally, this has to do with the variability and variety of available monsters: each one is its own separate challenge and the difficulty can wildly vary depending on their exact context. There's also the matter of a more relaxed collision detection and vastly increased gradation of jumping/pogoing height that add to a performance gap between good and not good on the player's part. Basically, Keen Galaxy games are going to be harder on average.

Pyramid of the Forbidden is a good example of what happens when you're okay with a "save anywhere" feature. Even going as fast as possible, that level is about three and a half minutes long and (by my rough count) thirty separate challenges (counting the skypest pit as merely one). I would guess that Korath III Base using the normal exit is similar. A lot of levels in Keen6 have major claustrophobic issues and involve some ridiculous challenges as a result, often near the end of that level. Sometimes one additional obstacle doesn't seem like a lot, but they add up fast and it's that much more bothersome to try again.

The problem often isn't the difficulty of a particular challenge, but that the player must succeed at all of them without failing a single one. This said, I think the simplest way to decrease the difficulty of a given level is to just make smaller maps (or, ignoring that, make the path from start to finish smaller, and focus the map's length on either non-linear pathing or bonus detours). There's also the matter of a level's "actual length" versus its "perceived length": that is, the size of a map against the amount of movement you have to do in it. Stuff like backtracking and "macro puzzles" can weigh on a player fast, so keeping them to a minimum per level is probably for the best as well.

Granted, I'm not an actual level designer, but I do make constant, critical observation of the levels I play. (I have to, so I can figure out how to break them as much as possible.) When I played Battle of the Brains, I liked the challenge, but I REALLY would have liked there to be midpoints somehow: most of them were way too long to do in a single shot. I'll have to check out Lego Keen and Shmaynoria that DHeadshot suggested, as well.
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Post by Gridlock »

The galaxy difficulty situation is certainly a difficult problem to solve. As someone who prefers to design longer, more involved levels, this is a challenge I'm always struggling to overcome. Generally, when I design, I assume it is a necessity that the player saves at least on occasion. I have a tendency to design levels in fairly linear sections that loop intricately through the level space, and each section could be considered a challenge which would be wise to save before facing. Unfortunately, the in-level saving mechanic is too cumbersome to want to use frequently, and so savestates are often preferred. The problem though is that many players do not have savestates added to DosBox.

In the end, I just try to make levels that are interesting and well designed in the hopes that the player will have the patience to play through them fully. Though shorter levels fit better with the game mechanics, I find that there is something special about larger levels in which the player has to invest more effort to overcome them. Kind of like, say, a complicated Zelda dungeon, there is something more intriguing and ultimately more satisfying about larger, more complex levels. Sure, there is a difficulty spike in terms of endurance, but I think the trade off is worth it. I just do the best I can to keep the difficulty from getting out of hand in specific level segments. It's hard to resist making a level more interesting simply because you don't want to make it too hard.

I think the real difficulty with Keens 4-6 is that the designers tended to cram as many enemies onto the screen as possible, and they often didn't test well enough to make sure the enemy combinations were reasonable. Particularly in Keen 5, the difficulty comes not from the length of the levels but from the amount of enemies assaulting you. Many Keen 5 levels have much more nonlinear designs, and this means that it tends to feel like there is a constant threat, rather than having progression broken down into segments. I think, assuming you allow the player to perform some kind of save, that longer levels are much more manageable when you occasionally give the player some breathing room.

By this logic, I actually think Pyramid of the Forbidden is a fairly good example of macro level design, assuming you allow saving. The level pulls off a number of interesting mechanics, but they're segmented so that you can break them down into smaller challenges while still getting a feeling of progression. I tend to prefer this type of level design over wildly nonlinear levels that lack an overarching design concept to make them unique and worth playing.

The unfortunate thing about Keen Galaxy is that there is very little to reward exploration other than points, extra lives, and ammo (the first two are rather meaningless anyway). For this reason, I prefer to give the illusion of exploration while really guiding the player through everything I want them to experience. If most of a level is optional, then what motivation will the player really have to experience all the cool stuff you've designed?
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