3D Commander Keen Game

[Malvineous]

Of course you could make a 3D version of Keen that would look good, the problem is that it's very difficult to make it "feel" like the classic Keen games. Those of us who have been playing them for years find that they have a particular appeal, and reproducing that in a new game is very difficult. If you don't do it right, all you end up with is "just another 3D game" that happens to use Keen-related characters and objects. For Keen fans, there's a *big* difference between that and a "proper" Keen game that manages to capture the magic of the original series.

Those who are against a 3D game aren't saying that because it mightn't look good, they're saying it because changing the whole gaming style would make it that much harder to reproduce the same magic that attracted them to the originals.

I suspect that's one reason why mods are so popular compared to fangames - when you're using the same engine, you're already half way there...

[tulip]

I suspect that's one reason why mods are so popular compared to fangames - when you're using the same engine, you're already half way there...

I think you're about right there. However one second thing is that the games with good engines (Isis or ROCK) aren't finished (yet, hopefully).

[KeenRush]

I think many modders, me included, have a different mind set. It's not about making a fan game using the original engine, it's about using the original engine to make a new Keen adventure within the limits and possibilities of the engine. Surely it's great the engine is there, I love it exactly the way it is. But I don't think many do a mod instead of a fan game to make the job easier, there are so many things that can't practically be done in mods but could be easily coded when making an own fan game. I think modding is much more inventive, of course, it has to be. Anywas, I don't like any kind of comparison between mods and fan games, they're two very different things.

[tulip]

That is totally right. The approach for making a mod is different. But I was talking about the reception, not the making process. And the reception can be compared, by numbers of players who liked them. And that would be tough for fangames. There are so many good mods and only two or three fangames, and they're only in demo status.

[Ravey]

Rayman 2 (and partially 3) is by far the best example of a 2D platformer series converted into a 3D masterpiece. I have to say, Rayman II has got to be the best video game I've ever played.

People complain that Keen would never look good in 3D, but those people seriously lack imagination. Nearly all things are possible in the gaming universe, not least of which is modifying old ideas into new ones.

Rayman really was amazing and yes, if the game was designed right and had fun gameplay mechanics, there's no reason why it wouldn't work.

[XkyRauh]

The success of a 3d Keen is going to hinge entirely on the feel of the Pogo stick. :) If you can nail that down tight, the rest will fall into place.

I'd happily forego poles, ledge-grabbing, and shooting up/down in the air, as long as the pogo felt right.

[jonnyspeight]

ah yes the all important pogo stick i'd like to know how you'd do that tho as i can think of no game that has three modes of 'jumping', regular jumping, pogo-ing and the higher pogo-ing

[XkyRauh]

Hmm. Well, in transitioning from 2d to 3d, most games have LIMITED the player's mobility in the following ways:

* Loss of wall-jump
* Reduced character movement speed
* Increased travel distance between landmarks and level events
* Reduced spontaneous player interaction with the environment

However, they have EXPANDED the player's mobility in the following ways:

* Double-jump
* Specific environmental aids

Looking at this list, you can take a game like:
Super Metroid (which offered the player ridiculous mobility with the Speed Booster, wall jumping, the Freeze Beam, and Hi-Jump Boots) and turn it into Metroid Prime (which keeps the player's mobility ridiculously hampered, without on-the-fly Grapple Beaming, removal of wall jump, and lack of speed upgrades)...
Sonic the Hedgehog 3 (which offered the player rather good mobility with the Spin Dash, level props to facilitate speed, on-the-fly rolling into a ball to gain momentum, and generally good brakes and air control) and turn it into Sonic Adventure 2 (which limited mobility by putting Dash Panels in specific places, taking away player control in key areas, making moves (Flame Roll) uninteruptable, and generally discouraging the player from slowing down or stopping)...

Both games, in the transition from 2d to 3d, gave the character a form of double jump (Sonic gets the mid-air boost of his "Homing Attack," while Samus gets a flat-out double jump early on) but sacrifice previous movement methods (Bomb jumping in Metroid Prime is all but impossible; rolling to gain momentum in Sonic Adventure is worthless compared to running on foot).

So as far as transitioning KEEN into 3d, I'd say please do NOT give him a double jump. Please do NOT limit his movement speed, or increase the size of the levels to accommodate the 3d-ness of the atmosphere.

DO spend time developing a camera system that can handle tight, well-designed areas, possibly with keyframes or some sort of focus system. DO maintain the pogo stick as a toggled ability. DO give us a small amount of auto-aim, to compensate for the clumsiness of aiming in 3d (side rant: 3rd person aiming with the mouse is nothing more than a glorified 1st person shooter)

:) I realize some of this is off-topic, but it blows me away how little a character can do on their own, in a 3d game, compared to the sheer mobility and flexibility they possess in 2d.

[tulip]

What about Pandaemonium. It had 3D graphics, and the gameplay of a 2D jump & run. Apparently it wasn't as successful as the "real" 3D jump&run genre, but I liked it.
If one creates something between Pandaemonium and say Rayman 2, I think that would do the trick.

[XkyRauh]

You can do 2d-in-3d, like they did with Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards, or Little Big Planet... or you can do a 3d with very focused directional movement, like Crash Bandicoot (fixed camera, narrow rectangular areas allow for some side-to-side, but gameplay is primarily 2d).

I was talking to a friend about this, and the big thing that limits a 2d-in-3d game is the ANIMATION. Sprites have a magnificent ability to communicate exactly what's going on in a fraction of a second. With 3d animation, there's sweeping movements, keyframes, and imperfections which can make it difficult to tell what's going on. Look at videos of the new Sonic Unleashed game to illustrate: the way Sonic transitions from running to jumping and back again is almost lagged behind his actual location in the game world--it's like the player has to dissociate what they're seeing on the screen from the mechanics behind the hitboxes.

Keeping Keen in 2d allows one to preserve the vague blend of puzzle-action-adventure-exploration that the original games had, but it almost prevents the game from moving beyond the key-door-key-door gameplay that is decades old at this point.

[DSL]

Sorry for tossing myself into this thread, but let's say a keen engine is built orthographic, cavalier perspective-way with 3d-geometry intead of 2d-sprites. One problem that accours if all characters moves along a 2d line is how they pass eachother.

With 2d-sprites this is not a problem, since all sprite can be sorted on top of eachother when passing.
3d-geometry on the other hand will cut through eachother when passing wich looks like all characters are ghosts or something.

This is a problem if a new keengame would use the original gameplay perspective but use 3d-geometry. Something has to be done to let characters pass each other, like adding depth to the player movement, ie let the player move not just left and right but towards and away from the camera. Such thing can very well be added without destroying too much of the keenish feeling. It's just another dimension of movement.

[MrBlack]

yea look at keen gbc :disguised

What is this 'Keen GBC' everyone keeps mentioning??

[jonnyspeight]

do you reall y not know what it is are r u just being sarcastic?

[Genius314]

yea look at keen gbc

What is this 'Keen GBC' everyone keeps mentioning??

It was a Keen game for Gameboy Color... it was made by a third-party company, didn't have the same look and feel as the originals, etc, etc.

[jonnyspeight]

as a game in itself it's okay-ish, but as a Keen it's