Keen 9: Battle of the Brains

[BBalazs]

It's absolutely okay to stay away a bit if someone either decides so, or has no other option - in either case, the result is the same, which one we're talking about certainly does not matter. It's just a detail. Remember that the people working on BotB are doing it for 1: their own amusement and 2: the community in general. They don't earn any money out of it, which, frankly is necessary to survive, nope?

Everyone has high expectations. That's excellent - but you have to know to live with it too. Quality work takes time, especially if it's only a secondary form of work. Bear with it, if you haven't contributed anything, why blame others? If you are not the patient kind, it's okay, but why make yourself look like a 5 year-old?

Nevertheless, it shouldn't be about making people give up hope on the release of a project. Some simplistic screenshots that do not reveal much only wet the appetite, and everyone will sleep better for the next couple of days.

Just my two cents.

[kuliwil]

Wow, I wonder why THIS thread was locked for so long....

Ceilick, the goal of professionalism is excellent and your management (not sure who is actually in charge of this but I assume it's you) of volunteers is a credit to the project. Although, really, my opinion and no-one else's matters. Given that this is a VOLUNTEER project, no-one has any obligation to meet any deadline, be able to pay internet bills AND rent, to reply to PMs (probably from library internet access computers), to listen to whining on bloated threads, and MOST OF ALL, NO-ONE HAS ANY RIGHT TO SIT ON THE SIDELINES AND CRITICIZE PROJECT MEMBERS!

People begging for a faster release, please remember that you look as hideous as this when you're begging:

If you're begging you're not a project member, you're just a frustrated geek sitting at their computer in a dark room somewhere trying to tell people nice enough to listen to your suggestions in the first place that they aren't working fast or well enough.

Two cents makes four.

[Dynamo]

Remember that the people working on BotB are doing it for 1: their own amusement and 2: the community in general. They don't earn any money out of it, which, frankly is necessary to survive, nope?

Invalid argument. Whetever be it game producers or modders it is absolutely necessary to hear what the community has to say about the mod and what direction it should take. It doesn't matter if a modder does not get any money out of it, the mod is still meant to be directed at a precise community, which therefore MUST have a say in the development of the mod.

It might just be me (and I don't want to offend anyone here, just saying my opinion) but the "professionalism" attitude sounds absolutely retarded to me. I don't care about spoilers, either... this is a video game, not a movie. It doesn't even have that much of a good plot to begin with. And because of this, screenshots > videos.

In fact this is one of the very few istances I've seen of this professionalism attitude. I understand it's Ceilick's work and I respect every decision he makes with the mod, but it just doesn't make sense to me and I'm glad it is one of the few istances of modders almost completely refusing opinions or criticism. I know you guys are keen veterans and all, and I appreciated your previous mods and I'm sure I will appreciate this one even more. But whenever I make something in my mods I showoff it to the public (or to a handful of people who actually care) and if there's anything that's wrong with it, it is subject to change. Listening to the community is the 1st rule about modding.

Just my 4 cents too I guess.


But if we are talking about why the thread was locked, that was for entirely different reasons, and I was one of those who proposed the lock in the first place.

and MOST OF ALL, NO-ONE HAS ANY RIGHT TO SIT ON THE SIDELINES AND CRITICIZE PROJECT MEMBERS!

Are you trolling? I can criticize whoever I want if I have a valid reason to do it. Whetever others agree with my criticism really is none of my business. By letting others know about something you are doing automatically makes you and the other project members subject of opinions, as does posting on the boards.

You argument is, no offense, laughable.

[VikingBoyBilly]

Kuliwil was just telling people to stop whining for the sake of getting it out faster (because this has not been said 314 times already, I know, but still). He wasn't saying non-team members shouldn't offer criticism. Srsly ckeen, the way you post in this community - you need to get off your high horse and stop caring about the opinions of people on the internet once in a while.

And you think BotB's plot is retarted? What the fucl?
So far all we know is the premise. It's still unclear how events will twist and boil down in the ending. We're promised an epic battle with mortimer, but we haven't even seen a glimpse of what that will be like. Ceilick might have done something clever and unexpected with him like how *spoiler*pokey minch turned into a *spoiler*old man in Mother 3.
I care very much about not being spoiled in video games and I'd rather not have screenshots cuz I already have enough incentive to play it and be ed by it's keenliness.

[Dynamo]

Kuliwil was just telling people to stop whining for the sake of getting it out faster (because this has not been said 314 times already, I know, but still). He wasn't saying non-team members shouldn't offer criticism.

No. He was saying to stop criticizing members because they failed to meet their goals. I wouldn't even mind if an actual reason was given for the delay but since it has not been given, I can't do anything but assume she doesn't care about it. And as I said, I couldn't care less if you agree or not. It's my opinion and I am free to state it.

Srsly ckeen, the way you post in this community - you need to get off your high horse and stop caring about the opinions of people on the internet once in a while.

For once I never really attacked anyone and only said my opinion on the subject. If you people have no idea how other modders handle their projects and I do, please "get off your high horse" as well. (I'm not saying Ceilick should be like all other modders, either. ALL I said is that *I* don't like this attitude).

And you think BotB's plot is retarted? What the fucl?

I never said anything about the botb plot. All I said is that the whole premise is that some guy wants to blow up the universe and keen has to stop him. Where's the great plot in this?

Action games were never made for plots. The whole keen plot is just an excuse for the gameplay, in fact when I was a kid I didn't bother at all about it, and even when I got to know it it didn't change a thing.

Now, if everyone is done whining over nothing as usual, we can get back on topic I guess. Not that there's much to talk about since there are no recent screenshots so there's no way to provide actual criticism. And I'm not saying there's something wrong with this: it's Ceilick's choice and I respect it.

EDIT: Also to make it even more clear: I criticized levellass' doing, but this doesn't mean I wanted to offend her or anything. Even though *I* can't see a reason for her not replying to any PM, it's still her own decision to do it. All I expressed was my disappointment towards this, but it's my disappointment, and I sincerely hope levellas does not get offended by anything I said here because I really did not want to offend her work or her ways of handling things, I just expressed my personal thoughts on the subject.

[KeenRush]

Levellass has had (and probably still has) financial problems because of a water damage and a lost job, and she has a small child. I think her mind just might be a bit elsewhere right now than in crafting sound effects...
I completely agree with Ceilick's goal: take the necessary wait, make perfect product. This mod's going to set a new standard.

Invalid argument. Whetever be it game producers or modders it is absolutely necessary to hear what the community has to say about the mod and what direction it should take. It doesn't matter if a modder does not get any money out of it, the mod is still meant to be directed at a precise community, which therefore MUST have a say in the development of the mod.

I've never worked that way and won't. A mod is such a big and time-consuming project that if you don't do it on your own terms and make of it what you want it to be you might as well not bother with it.

[The Keen Commander]

People begging for a faster release, please remember that you look as hideous as this when you're begging

NO-ONE HAS ANY RIGHT TO SIT ON THE SIDELINES AND CRITICIZE PROJECT MEMBERS!

I completely agree. If you have a problem with how project members are doing their mods, do your own mod and show them how it's done. It's one thing to offer constructive criticism, but to criticize someone for not doing something as quickly or as well as you like is wrong. Most of us (I hope) have personal lives outside of this forum.

[BBalazs]

As a lurker it's so interesting to see that the older part of the community thinks in a more sophisticated, mature way - which isn't necessarily true for everybody here, but hey, that's how it goes. In my more active days I wasn't any better either.
One only gets to really form and appreciate his/her prirorities when they are faced with having to make a living for themselves. I really don't blame Levellass, a child and a life to look after is a completely different art. I've seen many promising projects discontinued (and not "failed") for this and similar reasons. If you voice so sharply that you know the bigger and better way, why, there is nothing stopping you from proving yourself. Just cut yourself off the magically re-filling fridge, the free water, heat, electricity and telecommunications services for which you don't foot the bill. It's so much more different -and- difficult.
But to make life easier, I'd recommend a job that suits you down to the ground: Politician.

[RoboBlue]

Nah, CKeen likes his own opinion too much. As a politician it's your job to express the opinion of whoever sends the biggest check.

[VikingBoyBilly]

text

ok i was wrong

[Syllypryde]

Wow, I wonder why THIS thread was locked for so long....

It was already made crystal clear why this thread was locked. Ceilick had made it clear he wanted people to discuss BOTB and ask specific questions concerning the development of the game, things we might possibly see in the game, etc. Basically, the thread turned into a spamming and "let's instigate some fights!" thread. So it was closed. Multiple people were elemental in this decision.

......Given that this is a VOLUNTEER project, no-one has any obligation to meet any deadline, be able to pay internet bills AND rent, to reply to PMs (probably from library internet access computers), to listen to whining on bloated threads, and MOST OF ALL, NO-ONE HAS ANY RIGHT TO SIT ON THE SIDELINES AND CRITICIZE PROJECT MEMBERS!

Yes, it is a volunteer project and no one is under any obligation. But obligation is a two-way street. No one is obligated to do anything, but if you choose to volunteer, you have obligated yourself to do what it is you volunteered to do. If for some reason you are no longer able or no longer willing to complete the obligation you volunteered for, then for the sake of common courtesy, you could at least let the other people on the project know. It is not absolutely necessary to explain why, especially if you are having personal problems in the real world. After all, personal problems are called that for a reason. They are personal!

Levellass' reasons for why she may not be committed to the project anymore should not be of anyone's concern and she is not obligated to explain herself. But I believe she should have the common courtesy to at least let the others know she will not be volunteering anymore if that is the case. That way the decision can be made whether or not the team is willing to wait until she can make herself available again, or get someone else to volunteer to do that section of the work.

While we are still on the subject of obligation, another big reason this thread was closed because it was being bombarded with posts from people who had the silly idea in their heads that Ceilick was under the obligation to make BOTB. These people acted as if Ceilick owed it to them. Ceilick does not owe anyone anything! He is under no obligation to make BOTB just as we are under no obligation to play the game. He chose to make the game, people chose to help him make it, people will choose to play it, and some people will choose not to play.

As for criticizing other people, we have the right to criticize whoever we want whenever we want. In turn, the people we criticize have just as much right to criticize us right back! The key is to keep the criticisms civilized and on point. Criticizing just for the sake of it, or to try to instigate fights with other members is childish at best and spam at worst. Keenrush and others who are moderating this forum have already shown little tolerance for this kind of behavior.

......Two cents makes four.

You can please spare us all the delusions of grandeur here. Your two cents is still worth two cents. Your opinion is not any more important than mine or anyone else's on this forum. No one is more important or better than anyone else. In the overall scheme of things, we are all Keen fans that love to play Commander Keen and to discuss the game and its modifications with other fans, nothing more!

Invalid argument. Whetever be it game producers or modders it is absolutely necessary to hear what the community has to say about the mod and what direction it should take. It doesn't matter if a modder does not get any money out of it, the mod is still meant to be directed at a precise community, which therefore MUST have a say in the development of the mod......

For the first time in my life I have to disagree. Yes, I think it is cool that Ceilick allows the community to shares its ideas, but I am also happy that he has the integrity to do things his own way as well. I hate cliches, but two cliches come to mind. "You cannot please all the people all the time" and "When you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one" have merit here. There are people who are not going to like BOTB regardless of what Ceilick does. If he tries to place too much emphasis on what everyone else wants and not enough on what he wants it is a recipe for disaster. It is Ceilick's mod and his project and he above all else should have a say on how it develops. Besides, what is the point to put so much effort, work and time into a project and then have no say whatsoever on how you want to develop your own game?

Ceilick just like any modder with any integrity will do things on their own terms. The integrity and the quality of work will speak for itself and is more than enough to bring in loyal Keeners to play the mod. I believe Ceilick can develop his mods how he sees fit. Those that do not like it, do not play the mod. It is that simple!

Levellass has had (and probably still has) financial problems because of a water damage and a lost job, and she has a small child. I think her mind just might be a bit elsewhere right now than in crafting sound effects...
I completely agree with Ceilick's goal: take the necessary wait, make perfect product. This mod's going to set a new standard.

I believe whatever problems Levellass may be having are irrevelent to her participation or lack there of in BOTB. As I stated earlier in my post, personal problems are exactly that. If she divulges these problems later on that is her choice, but what goes on in her personal life is really no one else's business. But I also stated earlier that I believe she should have the courtesy to let the other project members know if she is choosing not to participate anymore, regardless of her motivations.

I can understand Ceilick wanting to make BOTB the best it can be and I can understand his goal for professionalism. But the intention to make the "perfect product" can be very risky and I would really hate to see it blow up in his face! First of all, nothing and no one is perfect. So however hard he works on the game, it will never be perfect. It will all come down to the quality being better than its possible flaws. Secondly, demanding perfection in the game will cause players to demand perfection in the game as well. As a result, people will nitpick the game more than normal and that will cause people to possibly dislike the game over petty little things they would not normally notice or even care about. Me personally, I do not expect the game to be perfect. I am looking for a game with quality, that is entertaining, fun to play, and made with the same integrity that Ceilick does with his mods. Overall, I seriously doubt I will be disappointed.

I've never worked that way and won't. A mod is such a big and time-consuming project that if you don't do it on your own terms and make of it what you want it to be you might as well not bother with it.

That is one good reason why you make quality mods. I hate to admit it, but there has been an occasion or two where the thought crossed my mind that I would like to find out where you live, fly out there, knock on your door, then punch you in face as soon as you open the door, for making your mods so ridiculously hard. Of course, I would never do that... #1- I am more mature than that. #2- Anger and frustration do not promote rational thought. Once I took a break from whatever mod was pissing me off, I calmed down. #3- It is not your fault my Keen skills are not up to par to yours. Despite the fact your mods frustrate me to the point of making me want to chuck bricks at random strangers, overall your mods are top notch in quality and playability. Eventually through my own persistence and preseverance, I will complete them.

Now that I had my chance to rant I will steer things back on topic. To Ceilick, months ago you had mentioned an issue with the boss battle. Apparently there were possible limitations on patching the shockshund and you were afraid Keen Vs. Mortimer would seem underwhelming or even anti-climatic. Without revealing too much, were you able to come up with some creative options to make this boss battle more epic?

You also mentioned disabling the cheat codes until people PM'ed and proved they completed the game legitimately. Did you still plan to do this?

Were you able to achieve a viable use for all the enemies? You had mentioned that a few enemies (spirogrip, sphereful and the slicestar) would be difficult to patch them to be more interesting enemies because of their severe limits in movement. Were you able to solve this problem?

Patrick

[MOM4Evr]

(really long post)

Hear, hear.

[Mink]

Remember that Lass has been an amazing help throughout this entire project and that she pretty much singlehandedly patched the whole thing. As such, I'm willing to cut her some slack for this - she's said she's been busy, and although I'd've personally preferred that she had also finished the sounds, it's really not that big of a deal.

And it's not like delays have hurt the mod at all - we've all gone through and fixed little errors that would've been overlooked had we released right as everything else was "finished", and we also drastically improved a couple levels' designs. So basically just relax, guys, we are trying to make this as good as it can be as fast as we can.

[Eros]

well, if i may weigh in, i believe that the shikadi masters are sufficient for a Mort boss, as they can move around nearly randomly, they can shoot bouncing balls of energy and unleash lightning across the floor. however, because i doubt that anyone has had much luck in patching immortals to be killable, i doubt that would be useful.

...thus contradicting my post up to this point.
------------
the spirogrip, sphereful, and slicestars are quite versatile if you think about it.

my ideas about the enimies:

spirogrip: the TrackerBeam is a graceful machine, it shoots a grappling hook at you, and it pulls itself to you! try not to be in its path when its red hot cannon hits!

sphereful: Very ominous, the Tracker keeps the area clean, scooping up all trash and trespassers using its claws and immediately incinerating it. However, YOU seem like an unwanted intruder, too...

slicestar: ElectroVonts fly around, electrocuting enemies and prey by passing through it. However, these machines aren't exactly perfected yet, and they may blow up if too much excess energy is introduced into its system.

These are purely my ideas and thoughts about how you can modify these enemies, and i would not appriciate anyone yelling about how it's celick's mod and i have no right to add my stuff in so late in the making, as that's not what i'm intending to do.

[TerminILL]

There's not a whole lotta point in making these kind of suggestions. While not released, the game is, in effect, done. Release is pending a couple finalisations that are going on as we speak.

EDIT: I'm not yelling about "adding your stuff so late in the making", just to be clear. Merely pointing out that interesting as your ideas are, there's very little bearing they could have.