Checkpoints
Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 21:56
A discussion on checkpoints in Keen levels originated in the Planet of Agony thread after Ceilick's post. At Ceilick's request, I've moved that conversation to this new thread. --Fleexy
This is a big issue for me right now, it's delaying the release of my mod while I consider it.
First, Galaxy. In galaxy checkpoints are almost pointless. You can save at any time, I for one never used the points because, why? I can just load my game and have my life and progress all there. As such I'm amazed Atroxian had them and interested in what people think. (As I may include them in my mod.)
In Keen Vorticons checkpoints make a lot of sense; there's no in-level saving so your only option is to restart the level when you die. That can be very VERY bad, and I think it's a drastic limitation on what you can do. You cannot make a level too large, to winding or too difficult without seriously aggravating your players. Anything that takes more than 5-10 minutes to complete is going to be hell to die near the end of. (And it pushes you to make the level hard to start but easier to finish.) Likewise very tricky but rewarding sidequests will be avoided since (quite likely) death erases all progress.
With Vorticon checkpoints more flexibility is added. The modder can create points in their levels where the player can, if they wish, save their progress. There's a cost (Lives) so death is not consequence free. (And a good modder will make it such that there is significant progress between points, so each are rewarding and death still has a punch.) To me it opens up so many options.
This brings me to my galaxy mod; I am considering three basic options, the first is leaving things mostly as-is; save and load games whenever. There needs to be a cost to them however since they render the lives system pointless. (Look at Shikadi Network, does he EVER restart his levels? No, he loads a game before Keen is even offscreen.) This is why I have in my last modette a save-scumming detector that prevents game saving being used to beat a single obstacle.
Second would be checkpoints like Atroxian Realm, but with game saving as it is that's rather pointless unless saved games did something like restore at a checkpoint of the start of the level.
Third would be the ability for the player to set up a 'marker' whenever they wanted, at the cost of a life. Dying wouldn't cost lives but would return the player to this marker. Loading a game would go to the level start. So the player could save their progress level-by-level but would have to ration their lives (Or marker points) to set markers in challenging parts of the level. This would, I feel, make lives important (As once you were out you couldn't make any more markers.) and make players take game saving seriously.
What does everyone think?
This is a big issue for me right now, it's delaying the release of my mod while I consider it.
First, Galaxy. In galaxy checkpoints are almost pointless. You can save at any time, I for one never used the points because, why? I can just load my game and have my life and progress all there. As such I'm amazed Atroxian had them and interested in what people think. (As I may include them in my mod.)
In Keen Vorticons checkpoints make a lot of sense; there's no in-level saving so your only option is to restart the level when you die. That can be very VERY bad, and I think it's a drastic limitation on what you can do. You cannot make a level too large, to winding or too difficult without seriously aggravating your players. Anything that takes more than 5-10 minutes to complete is going to be hell to die near the end of. (And it pushes you to make the level hard to start but easier to finish.) Likewise very tricky but rewarding sidequests will be avoided since (quite likely) death erases all progress.
With Vorticon checkpoints more flexibility is added. The modder can create points in their levels where the player can, if they wish, save their progress. There's a cost (Lives) so death is not consequence free. (And a good modder will make it such that there is significant progress between points, so each are rewarding and death still has a punch.) To me it opens up so many options.
This brings me to my galaxy mod; I am considering three basic options, the first is leaving things mostly as-is; save and load games whenever. There needs to be a cost to them however since they render the lives system pointless. (Look at Shikadi Network, does he EVER restart his levels? No, he loads a game before Keen is even offscreen.) This is why I have in my last modette a save-scumming detector that prevents game saving being used to beat a single obstacle.
Second would be checkpoints like Atroxian Realm, but with game saving as it is that's rather pointless unless saved games did something like restore at a checkpoint of the start of the level.
Third would be the ability for the player to set up a 'marker' whenever they wanted, at the cost of a life. Dying wouldn't cost lives but would return the player to this marker. Loading a game would go to the level start. So the player could save their progress level-by-level but would have to ration their lives (Or marker points) to set markers in challenging parts of the level. This would, I feel, make lives important (As once you were out you couldn't make any more markers.) and make players take game saving seriously.
What does everyone think?