An open letter to Keen fans...

This is where you can post your Commander Keen related stories, artwork, or other stuff that is related to Commander Keen but otherwise doesn't belong in another forum.
Genius314
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Post by Genius314 »

Ceilick wrote:I dont know and I'm not really sure I or anyone can know what the truth of things is. Personally, I feel there is a God, or at the minimum hope there is a God. I certainly think its possible there isn't one.
That's basically how I view it.
It's entirely possible that Christianity is wrong, or that another religion is right. Heck, it's even possible that scientologists are right (it'd be a very strange coincidence, but still... the chance is there)
One of the reasons I believe in Christianity is because it's always better to be safe than to be sorry. You can still have a full and exciting life while following the ten commandments (at the very least). The thing is, though - if atheists are wrong, they're basically screwed. If atheists are right, who's going to care? The only way to truly know is to die, and if there's no afterlife, it won't matter whether or not you "wasted your life" with religion.
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DSL
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Post by DSL »

Genius314 wrote:better to be safe than to be sorry

Not pinpointing you specifically, but i've seen this reasoning made by many religious persons before. I always felt it's sort of like rewriting a holy script to suit your own needs. "Don't want to condemn homosexuals even if the good book says so, i guess it won't hurt?"
To say 'better safe than sorry' is like, well what the heck, i might as well join... Is that true faith and would that lead to an afterlife in heaven if you believe you would? Or would it mean you are living a lie by going along by what others say you should do?

Sorry you don't have to answer i'm just pointing out in general ;)

Ceilick wrote:
Think about why every religion is about what you MUST do or SHOULD NOT to. It's this ancient behaviour that have grown to monstrous proportions. This is why celibacy and virginity is such strong themes in every religion, it's about sacrificing our most primitive instinct, the one that made our existence possible. And a person living in celibacy must really mean serious business, right?
You said so above and I'm glad you recognized it, part of religion is about why we exist and how to understand the world. While there are plenty of instances where religion has told people what they 'must' do, I think many religious people would agree that its about what you 'should' do because its what leads to a rewarding life.


My theory that the modern society was dependant on religions to evolve is rooted in that type of thinking. If we had not evolved this type of sacrifice behaviour and evole safeguards for our selves i think we would still be fighting with bones and rocks, raping and killing eachother.
We needed a set of laws to be ruled under to keep us down.
Today we often have a law system mostly free of religious thoughts, so the good books have done their part really.
And as long as people keep thinking that a religion is needed on a personal plane to make people good, there won't be the same will to be and teach good without gods and fairytales. It's just that religions are a very good framework for teaching good and it's always been, but under false ideas, wich is the problem.
Ceilick wrote:Also, as far as I know, there isn't really anything significant about celibacy or maintaining ones virginity in the Bible. One can make arguments for them from things the Bible does say, but I'm not sure it states anything explicitly.

Well, virgin Mary, one of the most spoked of characters in the bible besides Jesus, have a heavy focus on virginity. Jesus himself is never mentioned to have had a relation with a woman like normal deadly ones, but i guess it's simply doesn't say he lived in celibacy so we simply doesn't know anything about it i think.
Most monks and nuns from all kinds of religions have been practicing celibacy as a strong theme in everything they do.
Marriage is basically this too, you are not supposed to have sex before god approves it. All pre-marriage sex as well as masturbation is considered a sin you know. The emphasis on female virginity is most likely due to strong patriarchy through out our history, it still is in many cases.


I think the patterns are quite obvious if you study them and know things like psychology and the dynamics of human social interaction.
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Post by Ceilick »

To say 'better safe than sorry' is like, well what the heck, i might as well join... Is that true faith and would that lead to an afterlife in heaven if you believe you would?
Pascal's wager for those who aren't familiar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_W ... evelations

DSL points out the fourth criticism of the 'better safe than sorry' argument. The counterpoint, however, is that no one places a bet without hoping that they win (unless they've got a strange scheme planned). If you follow God's commandments because it's where your bet yields more reward, aren't you going to, to some degree, actually believe in what you're betting on?

And even if not initially, by living your life oriented in that manner, is it possible or even probable that you will pick up actual belief?

Also important to note that it matters how you define 'faith in God', which definition is God's definition, and if faith is even what God requires for heavenly rewared.
It's just that religions are a very good framework for teaching good and it's always been, but under false ideas, wich is the problem.
I'm not really sure what you mean by "under false ideas".
Well, virgin Mary, one of the most spoked of characters in the bible besides Jesus, have a heavy focus on virginity
It's important to note that virginity, here, is used in the context of the 'miracle of the virgin birth', not in the sense of virginity as a virtue.

I completely agree with you that religions have placed all kind of emphasis on virginity and celibacy, but in reference to Christianity, this is religion outside the Bible. The Bible itself doesn't have any "strong themes" of virginity or celibacy (that I know of, at least). You weren't necessarily making that argument before, but I wanted to clarify that.
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DSL
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Post by DSL »

Yeah i really like to discuss further, but i feel this forum is the wrong place for this. I fear it can break us apart and i don't want that ;)

I always felt that this Commander Keen forum has been free of fuzz and trolling, i think we'll keep it that way. I think many would start hating me if i spoke my mind :dead
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Post by Galaxieretter »

VikingBoyBilly wrote:We're just supposed to make the most of it while we've got it.
At least SOMEONE gets it...
DSL wrote:To say 'better safe than sorry' is like, well what the heck, i might as well join... Is that true faith and would that lead to an afterlife in heaven if you believe you would?
pwn

I also agree with DSL on this one. Lets not discuss THIS topic like "Rabid wolverines," Aye? I had my say, it's true, and I really don't have much else to say.

Except that pretty much my idea of life is what VBB said above.
I'm not being Atheist. I don't believe or not believe in gods or "God." If he does exist, w007. If he's not, whatever. But I'm striving to do the best I can in the PHYSICAL and try not to divert my energies to frivolous thoughts about spirits, ghosts or what have you.

Not being a Christian doesn't mean you are immoral. In fact I really understand all the teachings and WHY they are there. DURH. Don't have sex so you won't get AIDS. :rolleyes Seriously.
Don't be gay so you won't get made fun of, get AIDS or hemorrhoids... good god.
:dopefish

I just don't need the reasons to be sugar coated anymore.
We have the reasons WHY certain things are bad ideas. We now understand the forces that once were unknown but the results were real and observable.
(For example, your house being "unclean" if mold grows in your house. You need to tell the rabbi, you vacate the premises for a month or so, the rabbi goes into the house at the end of the time period, if it's "unclean" you are SOL and need to find a new place to stay. Why is this? Because "God said so." Now we know WHAT mildew and mold are and why they are bad.)

This topic needs to be moved to Misc. Keenrush?
Do your thing. :P
[size=0](Oh, by the way. Am I the only one who completely skipped Deltamatic's post?)[/size]
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tulip
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Post by tulip »

Deltamatic wrote:Yeah, one religion in particular keeps on not being proved wrong for some strange reason.
Man you made your whole effort to to point out the flaws in the Comic worthless with this phrase. You lowered yourself down to the same fundamentalist level of argumentation that the comic started with. You've fully stepped into the trap the comic was set out for!
Ceilick wrote:I think its safer to say that whether religious or not religious, people tend to be arrogant and think that they're right and use some sort social custom or system (religion, scientific theories, scientific facts, statistics, etc) as the 'proof that they're right'. It isn't being a Christian or atheist that makes the person that way, its being human.
That's it! Exactly.
Image You crack me up little buddy!
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Post by Galaxieretter »

tulip wrote:
Deltamatic wrote:Yeah, one religion in particular keeps on not being proved wrong for some strange reason.
Man you made your whole effort to to point out the flaws in the Comic worthless with this phrase. You lowered yourself down to the same fundamentalist level of argumentation that the comic started with. You've fully stepped into the trap the comic was set out for!
Galaxieretter wrote:pwn
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DSL
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Post by DSL »

Galaxieretter wrote:pwn
Haha yeah, it's mighty hard to abruptly end a discussion for the sake of forum peace... :dopekeen It's not that i've run out of arguments or got conviced of the opposite, it's just that i feel it's better to leave it now.
I hope you others don't wander off too much and start hating eachother.
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Deltamatic
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Post by Deltamatic »

I think I'll wander off and start randomly hating ravioli. I never liked ravioli.
I saw the comments on my rebuttal and reread it. Yeah, that's more of a random returning-the-insult type of thing than a logical point refutation. Thanks for showing it to me, I'll remember to avoid that sort of stuff in the future.
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Post by Ceilick »

Galaxieretter wrote:I also agree with DSL on this one. Lets not discuss THIS topic like "Rabid wolverines," Aye? I had my say, it's true, and I really don't have much else to say.
Right, because once Galaxieretter's had his say, a conversation is meaningless and isn't worth having anymore.
Galaxieretter wrote:Why is this? Because "God said so." Now we know WHAT mildew and mold are and why they are bad.)
Why did God say so? Because he knew what mildew and mold are and why they are bad. Same reasoning applies to everything else you said.
DSL wrote:Yeah i really like to discuss further, but i feel this forum is the wrong place for this. I fear it can break us apart and i don't want that
I always felt that this Commander Keen forum has been free of fuzz and trolling, i think we'll keep it that way. I think many would start hating me if i spoke my mind
You gave your opinions as a gentleman would, civily and with respect. Any reasonable person here isn't goign to hate you for that or get up in arms. If you don't want to discuss, thats cool I guess, nice hearing what you did share :)
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DSL
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Post by DSL »

It's just that i feels like this forum is for discussing more important stuff
Like travesing the galaxy, rescue elders in red bathrobes and collect lots of candy.
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VikingBoyBilly
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Post by VikingBoyBilly »

DSL wrote:
Genius314 wrote:better to be safe than to be sorry
To say 'better safe than sorry' is like, well what the heck, i might as well join...
I wasn't happy being a mormon, and eventually I found more spiritual fulfillment in paganistic religions. I realize that the threat of damnation might be true and I could be punished for it, but I'm so passionately attached to my beliefs that I'd rather not sell out my soul to make people happy and get a free access pass to paradise. I feel the freedom of having my true faith is worth suffering an eternity for.

Earlier on I childishly lashed out on Christians, and that wasn't right, even with my bad experiences from it. The destruction I was thinking of is the nigh extinction of so many races, the exploitation and global conquest, the manipulation, and so many worldviews being erased from entire cultures, but that can't all be blamed on the religion of the people who did it. If there hadn't been a Christian revolution, the same things probably would have still happened, except everyone would be forced to worship Jupiter.

I'm strictly retaining my virginity until marriage, but not because of religion. I just want absolute, concrete evidence that a woman is going to love me for the rest of my life before I go and give my body to her. With the divorce rates these days it probably doesn't mean that much, but, well... I like being naiive :o

But really, first the Political topic and now this religious one. And both between such a short gap of time.
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Ceilick
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Post by Ceilick »

I realize that the threat of damnation might be true and I could be punished for it, but I'm so passionately attached to my beliefs that I'd rather not sell out my soul to make people happy and get a free access pass to paradise. I feel the freedom of having my true faith is worth suffering an eternity for.
I hear you there. When I think of religion in terms of myself, I'm not interested in being religious out of an attempt for avoid pain for myself, I'm much more interested in trying to believe 'what is true' or 'what is morrally right' (and as was said before, we can't really be absolutely sure what is 'true' and possibly not even be sure what is 'morally right', but we can try to make sense of those things with what we do know and place our bets with what looks best). I'm not against the idea of being religious out of avoidance, since I think it can and does lead to 'honest belief', but in application to myself, I'm not satisfied with it.

"playing it safe" definately isn't worthwhile if you're uncomfortable doing so.
If there hadn't been a Christian revolution, the same things probably would have still happened, except everyone would be forced to worship Jupiter.
Thats a great observation and I agree; it was coincidental that Christianity was (and is) used as a instrament of great crimes in history, it could have been any religion (and in many cases, other religions were and are used to that affect). It's not so much a quality of religion as it is a quality of human nature to use whatever is at its disposal for selfish ends (power, riches, etc).
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DaVince
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Post by DaVince »

*Now* look what you've started, Levellass!
Wow look at me I'm lurking
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Post by Galaxieretter »

Ceilick wrote:
Galaxieretter wrote:I also agree with DSL on this one. Lets not discuss THIS topic like "Rabid wolverines," Aye? I had my say, it's true, and I really don't have much else to say.
Right, because once Galaxieretter's had his say, a conversation is meaningless and isn't worth having anymore.
Yeah, pretty much.
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