Atroxian Realm 2 Level Demo

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troublesomekeen
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Post by troublesomekeen »

Gridlock wrote:I'm actually a little surprised that people are finding these levels difficult. These are by far the easiest levels in the game, and sometimes I wonder if some of the later levels are way too hard. Maybe people would prefer a bit more of a challenge?
A good stiff challenge is what I need! I'd like to see just how hard things get! On the other hand, I do often get discouraged. For my part, Galaxy levels I've had the most trouble with are the dark-purple under-ground levels, and the water palace-like places in 'Dead in the Desert.' Now, if this was Vorticons, then I would complain. But hey, there's always in-level saving.
Gridlock wrote:I'm considering releasing an update to the demo with some fixes, but it would actually be a bit of a pain to do that with how my files are setup. If people really want an updated demo, I can, but maybe it would be better just to wait until the final release?
Hmm.. I dunno. On one hand, we're all gonna be like, "No no, don't release anything else. Just work on the real deal!" But on the other hand, perhaps this project would get even more momentum with another demo release (though I'm not sure how much momentum means to AR at this point).
Plasma Captain wrote:Oh no, I was totally aware that the glitch had been brought up earlier in the thread. I was just stating that I hadn't played through the level properly because of it.
I was only just... you know... kidding. =D
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Levellass
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Post by Levellass »

wiivn wrote:
Gridlock wrote:Btw I think you guys are all missing the giant secret in level 1. Remember, every first level has to have its secret extra lives. :dopekeen
I found it! But only with the use of cheats. Without the cheats, I probably wouldn't find it. It's like a whole additional level with... yet, more secrets within the secret! It's not only hard to get to the secret area, but it's also hard to find yet another secret to get the lives themselves! It's like inception. Those are probably the most well hidden lives :). But it's awesome secret non the less!
Oh boy the first level of BOTB, getting that secret was TOUGH.
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Nospike
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Post by Nospike »

troublesomekeen wrote:
Gridlock wrote:I'm actually a little surprised that people are finding these levels difficult. These are by far the easiest levels in the game, and sometimes I wonder if some of the later levels are way too hard. Maybe people would prefer a bit more of a challenge?
A good stiff challenge is what I need! I'd like to see just how hard things get! On the other hand, I do often get discouraged. For my part, Galaxy levels I've had the most trouble with are the dark-purple under-ground levels, and the water palace-like places in 'Dead in the Desert.' Now, if this was Vorticons, then I would complain. But hey, there's always in-level saving.
I agree. Difficult levels in Galaxy are okay, but don't, please DON'T make them difficult by making them confusing and extremely large. That was the problem with certain Galaxy levels, that was the very problem with the hydro palace and a lot of levels in CKGuy's levelpack. ;)
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Post by Ceilick »

As Nospike points out, there are different kinds of difficulty; avoiding death and figuring out where to go. Difficulty in both is good, but it's important to space out the difficulty so that he player isn't dealing with it constantly or for too long. And even if you're aware of this as you design and look over your levels, as I'm sure you are, it's really hard to judge your own levels. I hope to help as much as I can, but I definitely suggest that anyone you have testing be consciously aware of how long they spend 'figuring out' how to do things and give detailed feedback in this regard.

Anything from arrows to guide player, restriction of where they can go, and patterns in pathing/your level style the player can recognize and apply to how they approach the level. In the original Keen galaxy, there are certain 'rules' of level design that we are often subconsciously aware of that tell us how to play a level. Expand on these, create your own 'rules' that players can utilize. A basic example (but not a suggestion) is something like "always take the upper path first" which could be conveyed early on in a number of ways (SGA, arrows, conditioning, repetition, etc) to the player.
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Post by Levellass »

This is why I'm hoping my patches to alter level structure depending on difficulty will work out ok. If you play on easy you should be able to get through in a cinch.
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Post by Roobar »

Suddenly, I get the desire to make the biggest open keen level ever and troll you all :moon
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Post by Levellass »

'open Keen'? :confused
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Post by KeenRush »

First of all, how the fucl is half of the community so amazing gfx artists all of a sudden? Why does everyone else show so much promise and skill but me? :( As you can guess from that venting, I'm stunned by the graphics, already starting from the main menu (Keen's hand all scratched in adventures -- that's a funny idea) to the background during the scrolling story text... :drool But most of all the actual game graphics. Such a moody, amazing world. This color scheme is the best I've seen for a while. The alien swamp setting is perfectly done with all the organic looking backgrounds, hanging vines, tunnels, pools, waterfalls, etc... I love those lazy froglike creatures, so funny and adorable & the way they're sometimes in the shallow waters up to their eyes is just perfect game/mod design magic moment. Those spider things give me the creeps. Seriously, how do you people make graphics this good? This is professional quality. The way this uses dithering to make this darker palette = so good. Let's see, what else to say... I'm probably forgetting something I planned to say but I can always add it later. Hoping to see the full version of this one day -- it's evident (from this, from other screens, from forum postings) that much much work has gone into this and it would be great to see it all. :)
My newest mod - Commander Keen: Sunset: viewtopic.php?t=8568 | codename H.Y.E.N.A.
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Post by Gridlock »

I agree. Difficult levels in Galaxy are okay, but don't, please DON'T make them difficult by making them confusing and extremely large. That was the problem with certain Galaxy levels, that was the very problem with the hydro palace and a lot of levels in CKGuy's levelpack.
This is unfortunately a trait that a few of the levels have. Looking back, I probably would have designed them simpler. Since I'm not going to remake levels, I'll do the best I can to make them clear and solvable. I'd be nice to figure out what people find most challenging about big levels. Are they just too complicated? Do people not like having to search around a lot? Is it the kinds or placement of enemies? Do people like big levels as long as they don't have too many puzzles? I honestly don't understand how people found a level like hydro palace confusing, as that level was smaller and simpler than many of the original Keen levels and even some of the DITD levels.

The AR levels are pretty dense with things to do (ie switches, challenges, platforms etc). I'm hoping that the uniqueness of some puzzles/sections will offset the difficulty.

Code: Select all

And even if you're aware of this as you design and look over your levels, as I'm sure you are, it's really hard to judge your own levels. I hope to help as much as I can, but I definitely suggest that anyone you have testing be consciously aware of how long they spend 'figuring out' how to do things and give detailed feedback in this regard. 
Yes, this is definitely good advice. Since you're already familiar with the project and have substantial knowledge of level design, I'd certainly appreciate your input.

Code: Select all

This is why I'm hoping my patches to alter level structure depending on difficulty will work out ok. If you play on easy you should be able to get through in a cinch.
So... does this mean you can have 3 versions of a level in the gamemaps file? Because whatever the method is, that is crazy :crazy
First of all, how the fucl is half of the community so amazing gfx artists all of a sudden? Why does everyone else show so much promise and skill but me?
If you want the truth, these levels used to suck graphically. I still have plenty of early betas, and trust me, it doesn't even look like the same game. The trick is that I've been gradually polishing and adding to the game over the past year or two. I'm guessing you are somewhat of a perfectionist too, but that's basically how I've gotten it to this point. I also had plenty of help from Ceilick and a few others on the sprites and the swamp background.

Thanks for your all your comments, Keenrush. I've probably spent hundreds of hours on this over the past 3 years, so I'm glad it's starting to shape up. It's pretty close to being done, but there's so many small details that are stalling things.

Oh, and those spider things (atroxites) are the first of many types of Atroxians ;)
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Armageddon Begins Again. The Alphamatic has arrived.

Atroxian Realm: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3536
The Alphamatic: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4086
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Levellass
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Post by Levellass »

So... does this mean you can have 3 versions of a level in the gamemaps file? Because whatever the method is, that is crazy
No, just one level, but Keen will spawn in different locations depending on difficulty, large sections of the level will vanish or be changed (I'm working with 8x8 blocks) again depending on difficulty (That includes doors and switches.) Certain areas of the level will or won't blow up, and so on.

Of course, if the three spawn points are different enough there could be no overlap, three levels in one map as it were.
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Eros
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Post by Eros »

Gridlock wrote:So... does this mean you can have 3 versions of a level in the gamemaps file? Because whatever the method is, that is crazy :crazy

NY00123 did it with AAMBA, he also managed a trick to put the highscores level in-map
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Levellass
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Post by Levellass »

I have AAMBA-R3, and I fail to see this three versions of level thing you mention.

1 level with more enemies and such, but I do not see three versions of a level. Can you perhaps produce video or screenshots showing this?
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Eros
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Post by Eros »

Levellass wrote:I have AAMBA-R3, and I fail to see this three versions of level thing you mention.

1 level with more enemies and such, but I do not see three versions of a level. Can you perhaps produce video or screenshots showing this?

sections of the levels are cut off depending on which difficulty you take
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Post by Syllypryde »

Levellass wrote:I have AAMBA-R3, and I fail to see this three versions of level thing you mention.

1 level with more enemies and such, but I do not see three versions of a level. Can you perhaps produce video or screenshots showing this?
Allow to me explain, Levellass. In AAMBA's beginning level The Guard Post, you will notice as you play the level (on easy), over half the level is unreachable. The reason is NY00123 set up the paths to the rest of the level to be impossible to reach on easy because the paths are blocked by two long rivers of slim that are impossible to cross. On normal, he puts in a Gik at one of the slim rivers in order to stand on its back and cross the slim, leading you to a different section of the level. The section you play on easy is now unreachable because the platforms have been removed that allow you to jump up to the long pole. (Although you can use the IB to still reach it). On hard, he adds another Gik at the other slime river, in order to access the rest of the level. Basically, The Guard Post is the only level in the game which you are required to play three different sections of the level based on difficulty.

There are other levels in the game in which there is an alternate path you must take when you play in hard mode. For example, on easy and normal, the sandwich is found is BASA. On hard, you must follow an alternate path that leads you to the exit. The sandwich is unreachable on hard. On easy and normal, the rope and grappling hook can be found in The Blog Tower. On hard, you can grab the sandwich in BASA, but now the rope and grappling hook are unreachable. In the The Blog Factory, on easy and normal you have to find the exit. On hard, the alternate path leads you to the rope and grappling hook.

Back on topic, I think the two demo levels are awesome. Being one of the very few that liked Grimlock's abandoned Keen 4, Keen 8, Keen 1 Redone, and Lava mods, I am ecstatic to see this mod completed. As much as I love Ceilick's Galaxy mods (and most of his Vorticon mods as well), I have said before and told Ceilick before that I would like to see someone eliminate his monopoly on Galaxy modding. With the exception of Valentine Keen (which comes close), I still do not feel anyone has yet been able to rival Ceilick's Galaxy work. Once I saw the potential in Gridlock's abandoned mods and seen his levels in the DITD Community Levelpack , I believe Gridlock will be the one to finally topple Ceilick from his throne! Of course, there is certainly nothing wrong with friendly competition. It is that competition that allows us to enjoy better and better mods as the years go on.

As far as difficulty is concerned, I fine with it at the moment. I may complain about 'Keenrush' difficulty in Vorticon mods, but I do not mind it as much in Galaxy games, because I am much better at those games. 'Fleexy' difficulty annoys the shyt out of me in both platforms.
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Post by Levellass »

Right. Now saying that makes more sense than 'there's three levels in one'; it's just good level design, ONE level that plays differently depending on what difficulty you're playing.
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