Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

Here is where to post about the latest Commander Keen fangame or modification you've finished, a new website you've made, or another Keen-related creation.
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DoomJedi
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Post by DoomJedi »

Interesting...can you give links to your Doom projects?
Bernie wrote:Well Keen feels quite free for a 2d tile based engine, but for a 3d game, Wolf3d is hella limiting :p everythings in blocks with no up/down at all (interesting- kinda makes wolf3d sort of a 2d game- instead of x and y coordinates, its x and z.)
I'm a huge Keen fan, so you can't pull out any bad thing about it from me. It was the first PC game I truly loved.
Indeed in your hands - it gets treatment of pure magic - and I preciate and admire that much.

I've started my way on Doom/NewDoom forums (you can see the remnants of that in my nick...people playing "Skulltag" are still playing alof of my art - from "1st frag" medal (and some other medals) to some scenery, to animated CTF flag, some skins etc etc....including famous "Double Resolution pack"....) and Game Maker forums, and so I have quite a perspective and special spot in my in heart for each of those engines, and have my impressions regarding strong or weak spots of each.
I know "Wolf3D" engine well, modding for Wolf3D for too many years to mention, and even had my "15 minutes" of World-wide controversial media/internet/tv/radio/newpapers fame and buzz with a viral video trailer of one of my Wolf3D creations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX82x56LrwM)...but this post is not about me...you can always read about me in the interview on Dean's blog (http://deans-wolf-blog.blogspot.co.il/2 ... l?spref=fb)

Now back to topic (which is offtopic still in a way).

Keen engine is one of the most inspiring platformer engines I know.
And sure Wolf3D can't be a good engine to recreate Keen-style gameplay for Keen/platformer fans. (Though some nice Wolf3D tributes have been...)

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But as for Wolf3D - it doesn't have to compete with Keen in it's field - as those are 2 different engines, gameplays. If you want to jump with pogo - you better use Keen engine :)
Wolf3D engine can sort of emulate z-axis by famous silent teleporters trick...there are tricks for alot of things. I've seen Wolf3D mods where you can look up and down and do alot of things we didn't think Wolf3D can do. I've seen Doom engine faithfully recreated in Wolf3D engine - to the last detail (see famous "Klooni" mod). You play it - and you forget it's Wolf3D.
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Wolf3D had alot of impressive achievements.
Even one of my most famous Wolf3D mods ("Operation Eisenfaust : Origins") got feedback from gamers that it's better than many Doom mods - and makers of those Doom mods should feel ashamed of themselves.
Not to mention Wolf3D has Wolf4SDL - and there the only limits of the engine are the limits of time, patience, imagination and coder's skill...can can even rewrite the renderer if needed.

I've seen so much made for Wolf3D over he years that I don't think Wolf3D can be called a limited engine - and even if it is - wolfers seem to deal well with those limits to make those feel transparent. I know features of my current in-work mods, I know features I've seen over the years - limitations are not in engines - but in our brains, in us. In the eye of the watcher. One only needs some vision, creativity - and a good coder. I just cry with joy on sight of every victory over limitation.
What you did on Keen yourself with your mod - is not a mod on "non-limited engine" - but a masterpeice of creativity on a very limited engine and a true victory over limitations...even with color palette, not to mention the rest. Keen is 4bit, Wolf3D is 8bit.

But this is still not the issue. After all I said, with all Wolf3D flexibility and versatility - I still don't recommend Wolf3D for platformers - just as I won't recommend Keen engines for shooters :) So if you love platformers - Keen engine is MUCH better for you.

I just don't see Wolf3D engine as limiting. Doom engine is limiting too - it's a matter of approach. Dooms resolutions of sprite sizes - are more limiting in the huge amount of effort you need to put to make (and offset properly) new art - than 64x64 art standard of Wolf3D. I have more freedom artiwse in low resolutions of Wolf3D - than I have on Doom, I feel I can do more - not less, bring my vision closer and more faithfully. Wolf3D mapping is also faster - Doom mapping takes much more effort and time. So this is limitation too...sometimes so-called "limitations" - are source of our greatest freedom - and "freedoms" - are source of our greatest limitation..as we need challenge...muscle of creativity needs some limits and borders to overcome - to truly shine. I love limitations...I went from Doom to Wolf3D - from Wolf3D to Keen modding...I seem to get charm with more and more limiting engines...I'm in love with limitations - and don't see them as "bad".
You are talented sprite artist...I am less. I try cover that with experience and creativity, with patience and truly hard work, fighting pixel for pixel.
But still - maybe for a spriter like you - there is no need to mod Wolf3D - as you can draw art for doom or Build engine resolutions with ease.
But I'm not like that. I'm good in 64x64 - but much less with larger resolutions.
Doom mods nowdays take too much effort.

I want to tell you another story. I loved ROTT for many years, played it for years...I know it's maps by heart. And then I read on some site that it has 90-degree wall limitation - and I was shocked - I never noticed it!!! I thought it's like Doom...I even played it again just to make sure they are right :) LOL.
It's good mapping, it's good concept, it's good gameplay....and you don't notice engine's limitations...
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Post by Levellass »

TL:DR.


Summary: It's not the game, it's your own imagination that limits you. (Oh, and you know, talent.)
What you really need, not what you think you ought to want.
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Post by Keening_Product »

Levellass wrote:TL:DR.


Summary: It's not the game, it's your own imagination that limits you. (Oh, and you know, talent.)
Thank you.

Agreed.
Keening_Product was defeated before the game.

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Post by Bernie »

DoomJedi wrote:Interesting...can you give links to your Doom projects?
I went by the title B.P.R.D (my initials) but I dont have any one link to stuff I did. I don't know if this works:
http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index. ... asc&page=1
some of the wads I made were pretty crap :p but some were pretty good.

btw, what you were talking about, about the keen, wolf3d and doom engines and etc- I think in the end I only fooled around with them primarily cause I was a fan of those games, and knew the games well enough to modify them. But all in all they're horrible engines, if I were to take modding 'seriously' I'd use a modern engine of some sort.
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Post by DoomJedi »

Bernie wrote: I went by the title B.P.R.D (my initials) but I dont have any one link to stuff I did. I don't know if this works:
http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index. ... asc&page=1
some of the wads I made were pretty crap :p but some were pretty good.
Wow....you're the one who made the legendary "Equinox" mod? I enjoyed playing it at the time, was playing it again from time to time.
What an honor.
I know less the rest of your work, but I'm sure it's good.
btw, what you were talking about, about the keen, wolf3d and doom engines and etc- I think in the end I only fooled around with them primarily cause I was a fan of those games, and knew the games well enough to modify them. But all in all they're horrible engines, if I were to take modding 'seriously' I'd use a modern engine of some sort.
So...you say Keen is a horrible engine?
What does it say about possibility for more Keen mods/sequels?
Do you plan to start taking modding take "seriously" - or keep not taking is "seriously" and make more mods?
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Post by Bernie »

DoomJedi wrote: Wow....you're the one who made the legendary "Equinox" mod? I enjoyed playing it at the time, was playing it again from time to time.
oh wow, you played that one huh? what a small world :) i think i made it like 12 years ago.

I know less the rest of your work, but I'm sure it's good.
to cut to the chase, my mod Grove is really nice (well, Grove: Alternate is better) but its sortof annoying. you'll know what i mean when you get into it :p

So...you say Keen is a horrible engine?
What does it say about possibility for more Keen mods/sequels?
Do you plan to start taking modding take "seriously" - or keep not taking is "seriously" and make more mods?
well, maybe 'horrible' is too mean of a word... but, you know- they're old as hell. and no i dont think i'll ever take modding seriously, but if theres some good, easy to use 2d tile engine out there i might consider playing around with that instead.
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Post by Wallachian »

Wow, are you really the B.P.R.D. who made Grove, Equinox and that green map in community chest? Your mods and maps are awesome, man! Actually, music and mood in "Ploh" and "Hermit's shack" (is that you inside the shack?) reminded me similiar atmosphere in "Grove" and in first map of Equinox (that pirate secret down there), but i thought it's just coincidence! I would be really happy if i see complete mod with that ambiance someday (how would you call that mood anyway? English isn't my native language, but hey, i don't know how to call that in my native language either! Something like "tajemná atmosféra" :crazy ). Nevertheless, your keen work is brilliant. I like "homerish" Keen, enemies (my personal favorite is "superman"), and music, even in controversial forest levels (althought the best music has the very first level and last stages). It is without doubt that you can make outstanding atmosphere and i hope you will continue in keen modding!

PS: Yey! This is my first post here. To be honest i don't know if some more detailed critic is appreciated from new forum users (but long time forum observers and keen as well as "fan map" players).
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Post by DoomJedi »

Bernie wrote:oh wow, you played that one huh? what a small world :) i think i made it like 12 years ago.
I still have that mod on my comp...it's always there in my zDoom folder.
to cut to the chase, my mod Grove is really nice (well, Grove: Alternate is better) but its sortof annoying. you'll know what i mean when you get into it :p
Thanks, I'll try those out :)
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Post by Bernie »

Wallachian wrote:Wow, are you really the B.P.R.D. who made Grove, Equinox and that green map in community chest?
Yeah, thats so weird that you know all that :p well, actually I first got into making a Keen mod from a thread in the doomworld forums, so maybe some guys from there head out to these boards.

Actually, music and mood in "Ploh" and "Hermit's shack" (is that you inside the shack?) reminded me similiar atmosphere in "Grove"
hehe, I actually kinda thought the same thing :p but that kinda moody music I made more for the PLOH level. I just thought it'd make the level seem creepier. but then found it also works for the shack level. and yeah thats me in the shack ;) although my hair has grown long, i havent had a hair cut in about a year. maybe i should change the graphic a bit.
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Post by StupidBunny »

I hate to parrot everyone else but YOU'RE BPRD!? Equinox is still one of my favorite Doom wads of all time, it really influenced my own mapping style a lot. It's so epic. No wonder your Keen mod is so badass. :P

Yeah, I didn't know so many other keeners were familiar with the Doom community and modding scene, either. I guess it isn't too surprising in hindsight though.
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Post by Levellass »

And this is why the Keen Community will never die.

So...you say Keen is a horrible engine?
I think possibly a better word may be 'outdated' or 'limited' in that if one wanted to make a mod where they could do 'anything' they would choose a more modern game with its many options (Such as not needing DosBox)

This speaks of the two competing forces for modders. The first is flexibility; more modern engines, especially those actually designed to be modified (Doom as opposed to Wolf3D say) are easier to mod and allow for more options. While this does not in itself make a good mod, the continued success of explosion movies shows that graphics go a long way over substance.

The second factor is fandom; a lot of modders mod their games because they are fans of them and modding them is something they love, something they enjoy. If modding were only about the options then Wolf3D would never have got off the ground. Besides which, it's always gratifying to expand the limits of something using only your own mind.
What you really need, not what you think you ought to want.
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Post by lemm »

It's fine if you work within the limits and you only want to make a simple game.

If you want 10,000 tiles and 50 enemies per game, then you might feel a bit constrained.
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Post by DoomJedi »

Why Doom is more designed to be modified than Wolf3D?
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Post by Bernie »

DoomJedi wrote:Why Doom is more designed to be modified than Wolf3D?
from what i read, Id software did that on purpose, because they liked how people got around to editing wolf3d and they were interested in seeing what people could do with Doom, so they purposely made Doom more editable. and that tradition is now in all of Id software's games.

Equinox is still one of my favorite Doom wads of all time, it really influenced my own mapping style a lot.
holy crap thanks :p though i think the enemy placement in that wad is pretty badly done.
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Post by DoomJedi »

But what makes Doom more editable?
Heh, Doom modding started from Dehacked exe patches....editable my a.s :)
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