Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

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Snortimer
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Re: Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

Post by Snortimer »

You are correct! Thanks for the help. I had actually already sent an email to Bernie asking about it, and got the answer from him as well.
(Also, he said that he doesn't remember what he did with the Super Duper patch, so he won't fix the crashing bug)
Member since at least 1998 with... ah... some long absences. I was even a moderator at one point. I'll probably keep coming back here and there as long as this place still exists.

User avatar
Snortimer
Vortininja
Posts: 232
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:04
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

Post by Snortimer »

Just in case anyone one day decides to have a go at fixing it, here's a save file in which the error is 100% reproducible:

https://files.fm/u/p8cz8abd

Also, here it is in txt format (copy+paste into notepad and save as SAVEGAM2.CK4 - although I'm not actually sure if this method works...)

Code: Select all

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It has Keen standing to the immediate right of a stunned Super Duper (for some reason, the stars are missing above its head). If Keen walks left, as soon as he passes the stunned Super Duper, the game crashes 100% of the time with the "Null pointer assignment" error.
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Re: Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

Post by K1n9_Duk3 »

Code: Select all

##############################################################################
# BUGFIXES - BUGFIXES - BUGFIXES - BUGFIXES - BUGFIXES - BUGFIXES - BUGFIXES #
##############################################################################

#fix bad jump address in KeenContact - contacting object type 17 (foot)
#is not supposed to end the level in this mod?
%patch $CCBC $158w

#fix bad jump address after spawning ground-based Roich in ScanInfoPlane
%patch $EAD0 $032Bw

#fix bad jump address after spawning the boss(?) in ScanInfoPlane
%patch $EB58 $02A3w

#fix bad jump table entries for ScanInfoPlane (info values 80-82)
%patch $EF23 $50Dw $50Dw $50Dw

#fix offset for calling the function to spawn speech bubble #4
%patch $F767 $1080086Erl

#restore messed up SD_PlaySound call in Dopefish/boss contact function
%patch $12408 $9A $187409F1rl

#convert far call in PlatformThink into a near jump (the old call jumps into the
#middle of another function, corrupting registers SI and DI on return)
%patch $117C7 $E9 $FD9Aw $90 $90

#fix bad function address for Slop's contact function in the initial state
%patch $3103A $2EE7421Frl

#turn bad function address into NULL pointer (the state SHOULD be unused anyway)
%patch $31B3A 0l

#turn crashed superduper's obclass into 'stunned object' when loading a game
%patch $6060
	$83 $3F $13		#	cmp	[bx], 13h
	$75 $08			#	jnz	skip
	$C7 $07 $0021w		#	mov	[bx], 21h
	$EB $EA			#	jmp	clear_temp3
	$90 $90			#	nop nop
#This overwrites the code that would clear the sprite pointers for the platform
#thrusters, but they don't exist in Roib, so it's safe to overwrite that code.
#Note that this doesn't fix the bug. It just allows you to load "corrupted"
#saves and continue playing from that point.

#make superduper change its obclass to 'stunned object' when it hits the ground
# new (near) subroutine to change state and obclass (si is obj, ax is new state)
%patch $11ED7			#seg012:04B7
	$50			#	push	ax
	$56			#	push	si
	$9A $09DC120Arl		#	call	ChangeState
	$83 $C4 $04		#	add	sp, 4
	$C7 $04 $0021w		#	mov	[si], 21h
	$C3			#	retn

# call new subroutine to change to crashed superduper state
%patch $12002
	$E8 $FED2w		#	call	SetStunnedState
	$90 $90 $90 $90		#	nop nop nop nop
	$90 $90 $90		#	nop nop nop
%patch $1206A
	$E8 $FE6Aw		#	call	SetStunnedState
	$90 $90 $90 $90		#	nop nop nop nop
	$90 $90 $90		#	nop nop nop
	

#------------------------------------
# restore some of the error messages
#------------------------------------

#RF_PlaceSprite: No free spots in spritearray!
%patch $2EF8F "RF_PlaceSprite: No free spots in spritearray!" 0
%patch $17C1B $011Fw

#RF_PlaceSprite: Placed an uncached sprite:
%patch $2EFBD "RF_PlaceSprite: Placed an uncached sprite:" 0
%patch $17C88 $014Dw
Add this at the bottom of your ROIB.PAT file (before the line with the "%end" command) and let me know if it still crashes.
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Re: Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

Post by Snortimer »

K1n9_Duk3 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 20:59
Add this at the bottom of your ROIB.PAT file (before the line with the "%end" command) and let me know if it still crashes.
Thank you, incredible work, this seems to have fixed the crashing issues! :potter

I tested it with my save file and it plays normally now. Also, the stars have reappeared above the stunned Super Duper.

I also played through the last level until the end of the game and that seems fine as well (there's a few frames of gibberish that appear after Keen reaches the computer panel at the very end of the last level, but that might've been there before, and in any case it doesn't prevent the final story screens from showing up)

Actually, that "foot" you edited is the "computer panel" at the end of the game. What did you change there exactly?

I haven't played through every level again, of course. I do remember in the first "city" level there was some bug that caused me to exit the level after I touched something; maybe that has been fixed, too.

In any case, this patched version should certainly be added to the KeenWiki! For now, I've simply added a new section at the bottom with instructions for what to do:
http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/Episode ... in_of_Roib

There's probably still that bug where enemies sometimes seem to be able to shoot through walls if they're thin ones, but it doesn't make the game unbeatable I think.

Although in all honesty, I'm not sure the game is actually "fairly" beatable in any case. Personally I found the last level, the palace (particularly that room with the plants) and the final boss battle impossible to beat without using God Mode (I found that machine simply too fast to outrun for very long).
Member since at least 1998 with... ah... some long absences. I was even a moderator at one point. I'll probably keep coming back here and there as long as this place still exists.

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Re: Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

Post by K1n9_Duk3 »

Snortimer wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 10:48
Actually, that "foot" you edited is the "computer panel" at the end of the game. What did you change there exactly?
As the comments in the patch script say, I fixed a bad jump address. The old code used to jump into the middle of a CPU instuction, which could cause all kinds of issues (because the CPU treats the bytes from the middle of that instruction as if they were the beginning of a completely different CPU instruction). I wasn't sure if this affected the foot/console, but now I know that the console doesn't use type 17 (it uses type 0), so the branch with the bad jump address was probably never executed in the game. Still, it's best to fix that, just in case.

There are still lots of minor bugs in the ROIB code, but none of them should cause any obvious crashes, so I didn't bother fixing them.
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Re: Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

Post by Nisaba »

Hail to the K1n9!!!
The Duk3 is just an incredible phenomenon. awesome patch fixes
Snortimer wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 10:48
In any case, this patched version should certainly be added to the KeenWiki! For now, I've simply added a new section at the bottom with instructions for what to do:
http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/Episode ... in_of_Roib
I surely can upload an updated version of this mod. before I do so I'd like to make sure that there aren't any unpleasant side effects or patching conflicts of some sort. So I'd be super helpful if someone could just playtested those not missing levels.
Also @Snortimer: you've talked to Bernie recently, didn't you?! If you could, please ask him if he's ok with us uploading a fixed version of his mod...
"We have come to conquer you all and bring you lots of candy!" | about me | my current project: play Keen mods on a GameBoy |

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Re: Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

Post by Nisaba »

been there, done that
"We have come to conquer you all and bring you lots of candy!" | about me | my current project: play Keen mods on a GameBoy |

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Re: Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

Post by K1n9_Duk3 »

Snortimer wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 10:48
Although in all honesty, I'm not sure the game is actually "fairly" beatable in any case. Personally I found the last level, the palace (particularly that room with the plants) and the final boss battle impossible to beat without using God Mode (I found that machine simply too fast to outrun for very long).
Did anybody ever actually beat this mod without cheating? I know that hairmonster12 and Shikadi Netzwerk attempted to do playthroughs of this mod on their YouTube channels, but they both eventually gave up due to the crashes and the high difficulty. The only "full" playthrough I could find was done in God mode, at least for the final levels (I didn't watch all of those videos).

In my opinion, the Kreeg (white dudes with big guns) are way too powerful, being totally immune to Keen's shots, killing Keen on touch and shooting bursts of fast-traveling laser shots. I mean, an unstoppable enemy does fit in with the story, but it's terrible enemy design for a game. Unlike other enemies in the Keen games (Berkeloid, Robo Red), these dudes always turn around to face Keen when they shoot. And they shoot pretty frequently, which means it is literally impossible to wait for them to go away. They will pretty much always turn around and shoot before they reach the end of the visible screen area.

I haven't even made it to the boss level legitimately, but I warped there once just for fun and I have to agree with Snortimer that it really seems unbeatable, even on easy difficulty. So I ask again, did anybody ever actually beat this game without using any cheats?
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Re: Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

Post by Lower IQ than 314 »

Just popping in to say that I've never beaten the Megaboss 5000 without cheating, either. The fact that it's big and fast is bad enough, but noclipping its way towards you? :barf The only way it could be more overpowered would be to give it ranged attacks!

In all honesty, this mod's entire bestiary is overpowered. Beserkies move around way too fast for you to accurately read, surviving Superduper attacks is entirely RNG-based, Ningnong Springships are invincible too much of the time for you to reliably land a good hit on them when they're vulnerable, the Killaea Keenilia is like a Melon Lips on steroids, and the Kreegs mentioned above...ugh. Trying to play this mod without cheating is a terrible experience.

I've never felt so torn on a mod before. The worldbuilding and atmosphere are really good, but the gameplay balance is really bad.

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Re: Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

Post by K1n9_Duk3 »

Thanks for popping in.

I fully share your sentiment about the worldbuilding and the gameplay balance.

I'm open to suggestions on how to "fix" the difficulty.
  • I have been playing around with a patch that makes the Kreegs stunnable if you find that you have no other option. It would require multiple hits, just to encourage the player to avoid them, as originally intended by Bernie, instead of shooting them.
  • The Megaboss could probably be slowed down a little. Turning off noclipping might require a redesign of the boss level and I'd like to keep the original level designs intact.
  • Killaea Keenilia could be given a slower spitting frequency if that helps.
Personally, I didn't have too much trouble with the other enemies (yet), but I was just playing on easy.
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Re: Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

Post by Lower IQ than 314 »

Well, try checking out the last few levels (specifically, Last Outpost, Glass Gardens, Gleem City and Palace of Roib) on hard mode--with God Mode and the jump cheat activated so you won't go insane--and let me know if you think the sheer volume of enemies is even remotely fair.

I don't think the Opening should be redesigned completely, but the Megaboss absolutely should be nerfed. It's not even apparent what you're supposed to be doing the first time you see it. Even if you know where to go, it'll almost certainly kill you dozens of times before you beat it. On hard mode, there's even a few Drones thrown in there, just in case trying to outrun the friggin' thing wasn't difficult enough! Even its death isn't satisfying--it just randomly runs out of gas after you go down a certain hallway, and again, on your first try, you have no way of knowing it's even possible for it to die.

I think making the Kreegs stunnable after a few hits is actually a great idea. They're just too dangerous to be as common as they are. True, they're late-game enemies that only appear in the levels I listed above, but there are just too many of them, and they have too few weaknesses to exploit. (And to think they're even more overpowered in Underworld Ultimate... :bloody )

My grievance with the Beserkies is that they're the most common enemy in the game, but move around so quickly and have such a small hitbox that you'll be wasting a lot of ammo on them.

Speaking of hitboxes, Keen's hitbox being larger than normal, in addition to his moving slower in some instances, may contribute to the mod's high difficulty.

As for Superdupers, I was fortunate to play the mod well after the bugfixing where they would tend to crash the game whenever they showed up, so that's never been a problem for me. What I don't like about them is that, again, they're just too hard to read. They fly around so erratically that oftentimes you just have to run the hell away from them when they take off and wait until you hear them thud before moving on.

Ningnong Springships are, again, hard to anticipate, and appear in droves on hard. I'm almost 100% certain Palace of Roib is impossible to complete on hard thanks to them.

That's my immediate feedback. It's been a bit since I played this mod last, so my memory's a bit fuzzy on certain details, so take it for what you will.

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Nisaba
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Re: Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

Post by Nisaba »

beat this game without cheating? I don't think that this is even possible. at least not for me. in case of difficulty balance this mod is a nightmare. Unfortunately this kills the fun of playing the game.
Please don't get me wrong on this. I mean, this mod is absolutely astonishing when it comes to the colour scheme, design choices, game-play ideas, story telling, atmosphere, humor and so much more. Ruin of Roib truly stands out against most other "conservative/classic" mods and keeps up with the five top-notch mods the community has ever ever created. but the level of difficulty... oh, dear...

So, I absolutely agree to what K1n9_Duk3 and Lower IQ than 314 already have mentioned about certain enemy behaviours. And I'd love to see a community patch, which addresses all those aches and pains. In my opinion this beautiful but mean mod would profit a whole lot if the player gets a little bit more attention. it's one thing to punish the player in certain aspects. but this game needs to be at least beatable in somehow without hardcore overpowered enemies and unforgiving RNG moments.

so, if you could @K1n9_Duk3, please go for it
"We have come to conquer you all and bring you lots of candy!" | about me | my current project: play Keen mods on a GameBoy |

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Re: Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

Post by DarkAle »

Nisaba wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:46
beat this game without cheating? I don't think that this is even possible. at least not for me. in case of difficulty balance this mod is a nightmare. Unfortunately this kills the fun of playing the game.
Please don't get me wrong on this. I mean, this mod is absolutely astonishing when it comes to the colour scheme, design choices, game-play ideas, story telling, atmosphere, humor and so much more. Ruin of Roib truly stands out against most other "conservative/classic" mods and keeps up with the five top-notch mods the community has ever ever created. but the level of difficulty... oh, dear...

So, I absolutely agree to what K1n9_Duk3 and Lower IQ than 314 already have mentioned about certain enemy behaviours. And I'd love to see a community patch, which addresses all those aches and pains. In my opinion this beautiful but mean mod would profit a whole lot if the player gets a little bit more attention. it's one thing to punish the player in certain aspects. but this game needs to be at least beatable in somehow without hardcore overpowered enemies and unforgiving RNG moments.

so, if you could @K1n9_Duk3, please go for it
Yeah, the difficulty is not balanced in Bernie's games. Some months ago I started to play Commander Keen without cheats and I played a lot of mods. I didn't play this mod because I thought it was so hard for me.
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Re: Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

Post by Syllypryde »

I've beaten Keen58 and Keen59 and easy and normal. I've never been able to get very far on hard on either game.
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Re: Updated- 'The Ruin of Roib' - beta v3

Post by Nisaba »

Syllypryde wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 13:09
I've beaten Keen58 and Keen59 and easy and normal. I've never been able to get very far on hard on either game.
oh, that's interesting. did you manage to beat the game with or without a lot of saving and loading? pls give a little more insights. If I remember correctly you start playing mods at easy difficulty and work your way up, right?
"We have come to conquer you all and bring you lots of candy!" | about me | my current project: play Keen mods on a GameBoy |

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