Atroxian Realm New Demo

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Gridlock
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Post by Gridlock »

Is it me, or when you press and hold up for a 2-3 seconds and then release it, keen still looks up for 1 second.
This is a side effect of a patch that prevents Keen from looking up and and avoiding falling when platforms under him change from solid to fall through (like the red flipping platforms in K5 and 6). I may end up removing it though.
1) The blue birds in the first demo used to push Keen. In this one they do not. I think it added to the difficulty more when they push him or knock him off ledges.
Thanks for reporting. I had not noticed that Keen was no longer being pushed.
2) There are WAY too many extra lives in these levels, especially now that you added the "red star". Just on normal I had 52 lives at the end of the three levels.
The problem is, I'm very limited with the kinds of items I can place as secrets. Point items can work, but they are usually placed in groups and require several sprites I can't afford. 1-ups are the simplest thing to put in those secret passages to offer some variety. I can probably reduce a few of them, but I see no reason to change too much. I suspect few players are as thorough as you, anyway, and probably won't find as many. I think Para makes a good point too.
1. Point items are inconsistently highlighted. The spinning animation and lack of highlight cause me to think Kabobs were bizarrely-placed hazards.
I had meant to get around to changing this, but it sort of slipped my mind, so thanks for the reminder.
2. Sometimes water hazards are below the ground-line, but not deep enough to grab a ledge without dying. Only really annoying when pole-jumps are involved, since your distance is so highly crippled.
I may try out the trick Levellass used in the Valentines mod, where the topmost water tiles didn't kill Keen. I'm always looking for ways to reduce the difficulty without compromising important things.
I love the graphics, and I assume this is only the beginning because I am sure you have at least one or two more tiles sets for the rest of levels along with the current one.
Try four or five :crazy

Also, you can thank Gamebird for the music, but imo the best songs haven't even been revealed yet. :)
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Levellass
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Post by Levellass »

The problem is, I'm very limited with the kinds of items I can place as secrets. Point items can work, but they are usually placed in groups and require several sprites I can't afford. 1-ups are the simplest thing to put in those secret passages to offer some variety. I can probably reduce a few of them, but I see no reason to change too much. I suspect few players are as thorough as you, anyway, and probably won't find as many. I think Para makes a good point too.
This is why you need to create custom point items like I did in the Pirate mod. You're virtually unlimited there, 10K, 20K, 40K and so on! Items that add ammo, temporary invincibility items, think man! IMAGINE!
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Grimson
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Post by Grimson »

This is a pretty solid demo, nice work! The only thing that I think needs to be amended and hasn't been mentioned yet is the water tiles' ripple animation. It plays way too fast, as if the water is boiling. This looks bad especially against the swamp background with its stagnant water. I suggest you tone down the speed or even replace the ripple with simple glitter. The latter might fit such a gloomy bog-themed environment better.

Also, this is just my opinion, but at times the visual detail in general seems a bit overwhelming. The amount of dither is at times just unnecessary. What I liked in Ruin of Roib (which is here just as an example) was the perfect match of solid one-colour graphics and occasional dithering, true to original Keen games. It might not be the style you're going after, but it helps telling objects and the whole level apart from the background, and is easier for the eye, too.
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Gridlock
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Post by Gridlock »

This is why you need to create custom point items like I did in the Pirate mod. You're virtually unlimited there, 10K, 20K, 40K and so on! Items that add ammo, temporary invincibility items, think man! IMAGINE!
The 3-up is a start, anyway. Too bad I don't have any more room for anything else. :dead2
The only thing that I think needs to be amended and hasn't been mentioned yet is the water tiles' ripple animation. It plays way too fast, as if the water is boiling. This looks bad especially against the swamp background with its stagnant water. I suggest you tone down the speed or even replace the ripple with simple glitter. The latter might fit such a gloomy bog-themed environment better.
Interesting thought. Tbh, I built this water effect on top of the tar effect from Keen 4 without too much attention to animation speed. I'll try a little experimenting and see if I can get anything that looks better.
Also, this is just my opinion, but at times the visual detail in general seems a bit overwhelming. The amount of dither is at times just unnecessary. What I liked in Ruin of Roib (which is here just as an example) was the perfect match of solid one-colour graphics and occasional dithering, true to original Keen games. It might not be the style you're going after, but it helps telling objects and the whole level apart from the background, and is easier for the eye, too.
This is not the first time I've heard this observation, but it's a rather vexing question for me right now. The amount of dithering came from a desire to change up the visual style and deliver something very different from any other mod. It allows me to pull off effects that can't really be achieved with solid colors, and it allows me to give a chaotic, more environmental look to the levels.

I have no plans of abandoning this style, but I have been looking into improving the contrast between the foreground and the background. Personally, I rather like the way they tend to blend (for example in Larvae Lagoon), but I can try to differentiate a little more. Apart from that, though, I'm not sure what more I can do without changing the style.
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Levellass
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Post by Levellass »

Grimson wrote:This is a pretty solid demo, nice work! The only thing that I think needs to be amended and hasn't been mentioned yet is the water tiles' ripple animation. It plays way too fast, as if the water is boiling. This looks bad especially against the swamp background with its stagnant water. I suggest you tone down the speed or even replace the ripple with simple glitter. The latter might fit such a gloomy bog-themed environment better.
Indeed, I suggest at least one frame set to an animation speed of 255. This makes it seem much more random. I had to do this with the drop effects in Zoltan's map.
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Syllypryde
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Post by Syllypryde »

Gridlock wrote:The problem is, I'm very limited with the kinds of items I can place as secrets. Point items can work, but they are usually placed in groups and require several sprites I can't afford. 1-ups are the simplest thing to put in those secret passages to offer some variety. I can probably reduce a few of them, but I see no reason to change too much. I suspect few players are as thorough as you, anyway, and probably won't find as many. I think Para makes a good point.
Para does make a good point. But it also depends on how you choose to play the game. For people who use the in-level saving, extra lives do become pointless. But for players like me who rarely use the in-level saving, extra lives become more meaningful. They could become even more valuable if a patch could be used where you only get the lives when you complete a level, rather then dying multiple times, getting the lives over and over again and building up 50 or more lives. Levellass did a patch on her Pirate Mod where your score resets to what it was at the beginning of a level if you die. You are only rewarded points when you complete a level. I am all for having a patch like that not only for score, but for rayguns and extra lives as well. It would make high scores and extra lives very valuable and will also force players to be more conservative with their ammo, hence creating even more of a challenge. This would also give players the incentive to explore levels more in order to look for extra points, extra ammo and extra lives in hidden areas and secret passages. Just something for all modders to ponder for future mods.
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Nospike
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Post by Nospike »

I dunno about this. While I am a total noobster and can't play without inlevel saving (unless I made the level or it's Keen 1 :p ) I still greatly appreciate extra lives as they do feel very rewarding. Plus it allows me to drop the saving at times and attempt to beat a level the "fair" way without having to reload constantly if I fail.
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Levellass
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Post by Levellass »

Syllypryde wrote:
Gridlock wrote:The problem is, I'm very limited with the kinds of items I can place as secrets. Point items can work, but they are usually placed in groups and require several sprites I can't afford. 1-ups are the simplest thing to put in those secret passages to offer some variety. I can probably reduce a few of them, but I see no reason to change too much. I suspect few players are as thorough as you, anyway, and probably won't find as many. I think Para makes a good point.
Para does make a good point. But it also depends on how you choose to play the game. For people who use the in-level saving, extra lives do become pointless. But for players like me who rarely use the in-level saving, extra lives become more meaningful. They could become even more valuable if a patch could be used where you only get the lives when you complete a level, rather then dying multiple times, getting the lives over and over again and building up 50 or more lives. Levellass did a patch on her Pirate Mod where your score resets to what it was at the beginning of a level if you die. You are only rewarded points when you complete a level. I am all for having a patch like that not only for score, but for rayguns and extra lives as well. It would make high scores and extra lives very valuable and will also force players to be more conservative with their ammo, hence creating even more of a challenge. This would also give players the incentive to explore levels more in order to look for extra points, extra ammo and extra lives in hidden areas and secret passages. Just something for all modders to ponder for future mods.

As a matter of fact I have a patch for this already. The downside is if you save then restore your game in a level you are punished severely for it, your score and ammo are set to 0 and your lives to 4.

But is that too much? Would the save scummers complain?
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Post by Keening_Product »

Nospike wrote:they do feel very rewarding.
Only if you actually work to get them and deserve them. They must be hard to reach and require some kind of skill, or at least practice, to get them.

That's how I feel anyway, but I'm the kind of person who hates taking those secret lives in K4 L1 because they're so easy to get to. If there was one, okay. But so many? Eh.
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Post by Levack »

Why did you change the toads?I think they look odd with all those red pixels on them. Maybe you were trying to go for a warty look?
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Post by Syllypryde »

Levellass wrote:As a matter of fact I have a patch for this already. The downside is if you save then restore your game in a level you are punished severely for it, your score and ammo are set to 0 and your lives to 4.

But is that too much? Would the save scummers complain?
Again, it depends on how the player chooses to play the game. For those that depend on in-level saving or even abuse it, they are going to hate it. Expert Keeners and many moderate Keeners probably would care less. The only problem I would have with it is the rare moments I do use the in-level saving, usually to practice specific spots in a level where I get stuck. I will use the in-level saving to keep going back to it and practicing it until I am confident I can beat it. Then I commit suicide and start the level over. I would hate to lose everything just because of that. Then again, it could easily be avoided by just loading up a previous save where I'm on the map instead of inside the level.

It would be cool to see a patch like that, even in AR, because it would make rayguns, score and extra lives more valuable, but I also like to keep the in-level saving because it offers playing options. I assume Gridlock is going to keep the original format as far as those things are concerned.
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Gridlock
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Post by Gridlock »

As a matter of fact I have a patch for this already. The downside is if you save then restore your game in a level you are punished severely for it, your score and ammo are set to 0 and your lives to 4.
This patch would work well in a smaller mod, with short, straightforward levels. However, I actually intend players to use saving and loading, to some degree, in later levels. They are way too long and complex for anyone to play the whole thing without saving. Of course, this does make the abundance of extra lives pretty useless (save maybe for the final boss, but really, who needs 50 tries for that?). That's just how it is. Really, point collection is pretty meaningless in Keen mods anyway, but doing so gives players a sense of accomplishment. I think the same thing applies to extra lives.
Only if you actually work to get them and deserve them. They must be hard to reach and require some kind of skill, or at least practice, to get them.

That's how I feel anyway, but I'm the kind of person who hates taking those secret lives in K4 L1 because they're so easy to get to. If there was one, okay. But so many? Eh.
I've worked pretty hard to hide some tough and unique secrets in the game, so at least there will be some thrill in finding them. Every level will contain a 3-up star, some of them very tricky to obtain. Also, did you find all the secrets in level one, especially the large group of extra lives in the secret section of the level? I would hardly say those are easy to find.

Besides extra lives, did anyone have any more thoughts on the art style? I'm not going to change the heavily-dithered style, but suggestions for improvement are always welcomed.
Why did you change the toads?I think they look odd with all those red pixels on them. Maybe you were trying to go for a warty look?
I wanted them to look more deadly/poisonous as well as make them fit better with the detailed art style. Perhaps I went overboard? I can probably tone down the red a little. The first version seemed a little flat and too cartoonish for me, so I at least wanted some change.
Indeed, I suggest at least one frame set to an animation speed of 255. This makes it seem much more random. I had to do this with the drop effects in Zoltan's map.
Good idea, will try :)
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Syllypryde
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Post by Syllypryde »

Gridlock wrote:This patch would work well in a smaller mod, with short, straightforward levels. However, I actually intend players to use saving and loading, to some degree, in later levels. They are way too long and complex for anyone to play the whole thing without saving. Of course, this does make the abundance of extra lives pretty useless (save maybe for the final boss, but really, who needs 50 tries for that?). That's just how it is. Really, point collection is pretty meaningless in Keen mods anyway, but doing so gives players a sense of accomplishment. I think the same thing applies to extra lives.
Most of the later levels in all the games and mods tend to be quite difficult and I imagine where others might want to in-level save and once in a while I am even tempted to do so myself. I am the kind of Keener to explore all levels and conquer every aspect of the level. Towards the end of the game if I have an overabundance of extra lives, ray guns etc, I may stop going after them, that includes the drops that give you an extra life when you collect 100 of them.
I've worked pretty hard to hide some tough and unique secrets in the game, so at least there will be some thrill in finding them. Every level will contain a 3-up star, some of them very tricky to obtain. Also, did you find all the secrets in level one, especially the large group of extra lives in the secret section of the level? I would hardly say those are easy to find.

Besides extra lives, did anyone have any more thoughts on the art style? I'm not going to change the heavily-dithered style, but suggestions for improvement are always welcomed.
The art style is perfectly fine with me. I really like it. As for the secrets? Let's see:

Level 1- Dark Swamp
hidden areas- 8
hidden drop downs or poles- 3
secret passages- 4
secret passages with multiple paths- 2
extra lives- 13 + red Star (3up)
1 big secret

Some Keeners complain about 'long hallway syndrome', I like to see how they react to 'invisible' long hallway syndrome with multiple paths and turns, because all 3 levels have at least one so far.
Keening_Product wrote:That's how I feel anyway, but I'm the kind of person who hates taking those secret lives in K4 L1 because they're so easy to get to. If there was one, okay. But so many? Eh.
The only reason they are so easy is because you know where they are. But they were definitely not easy to find whatsoever. I am sure most Keeners did not know they were there for quite a long time. I know I did not.
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Post by Levellass »

Most of the later levels in all the games and mods tend to be quite difficult and I imagine where others might want to in-level save and once in a while I am even tempted to do so myself. I am the kind of Keener to explore all levels and conquer every aspect of the level. Towards the end of the game if I have an overabundance of extra lives, ray guns etc, I may stop going after them, that includes the drops that give you an extra life when you collect 100 of them.
You could always cap the number of lives. At least for the drops it should be possible to stop awarding lives at some point and just give points instead.
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Post by Benvolio »

I'm late to the party here. Anyway I literally listened to the map music all the way through five times. It is fabulous!! Like a perfect combination of New Wave and Doorsy reverb effects - all the while very much in keeping with the video game soundtrack paradigm. I wouldn't be surprised if this mod, when done, becomes the gold standard soundtrack-wise!

Now to play! Right away (apart from another whopper tune - amazing vibes), I am blown away by the level. A more polished than ever incarnation of the now very familiar Atroxian Realm graphics. But the level itself. Such an amazing sense of free-flowing openness. You don't have me feeling boxed in or restricted by any of the passageways. This is very professional (or above) standard stuff! Not overloaded with danger, because you have found a way to make a level jaw-dropping and mouth-watering without challenging my poor Galaxy technique (admittedly I'm on Easy, but most Galaxy opening levels are harder than this).

Oh my Garg that map river is the most beautiful thing I've seen since XkyKeen3! That pole setup at the start of the Murky Marshes is just so neat!Okay I'm gonna stop cataloguing the whole Demo now. This project has impressed me more and more with each incarnation.

As for the issue of lives... it is a moot point in Galaxy as far as I am concerned... savegames are no trouble at all. Plus it allows for people who think they can play without the savegames to go ahead and do so at their own risk!
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