I made a mod - Keen episode 59: Underworld Ultimate!

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Levellass
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Post by Levellass »

Bernie wrote:
In fact it might be good to give them a simple example recipe (15 of each gives you 5'000 points?)
yeah i did that already. in levels 1,2 and 7 theres some recipes written for the player.
Indeed but they're not very descriptive are they? They're hints and good if you're looking out for them, but something obvious should be mentioned in the help section about seeking out and picking up potions so the player has a reason to look for recipes or experiment.
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Post by clump »

Phenomenal!
Bernie
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Post by Bernie »

Levellass wrote:but something obvious should be mentioned in the help section about seeking out and picking up potions so the player has a reason to look for recipes or experiment.
hmm, yeah maybe i might mention one as an example. the 1-up recipe probably.
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Syllypryde
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Post by Syllypryde »

I found all of the secret levels except one. I found Cave of Boings, McZazgag's and Standard Secret Level Stuff, but I cannot find Some Other Game. I am guessing that finding it has something to do with the 3 Weird Gems. which I found all 3 of them, but cannot find the path to the secret level.
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie »

**SPOILER ALERT!**

lol no one cares. that level is accessed through collecting a certain combination of the potions. i can't remember which combo though :/ when i get home i can find out for you.

thanks for all the hunting you did in my mod anyways ;)
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Syllypryde
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Post by Syllypryde »

Bernie wrote:**SPOILER ALERT!**

lol no one cares. that level is accessed through collecting a certain combination of the potions. i can't remember which combo though :/ when i get home i can find out for you.

thanks for all the hunting you did in my mod anyways ;)
Actually it might give a clue to that in the game. I noticed when I was in Standard Secret Level Stuff there were pictures of another game in the background. It might give a hint in those pictures what combination of potions I need.

Edit: I figured the recipe for the secret level potion as well as recipes for a stuffed toy and death! (which I did the last 2 on accident several times).
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Roobar
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Post by Roobar »

Hey Bernie, at least fix that save/load bug. That's what is holding me back from playing this game.
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Eros
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Post by Eros »

I love the visuals and a lot of the map design, and I'm quite impressed with how things like breakable walls and the potion system were implemented, but I'm kind of frustrated with both.


Breakable walls:
Not all of them have to be obvious, but if there's no way to tell if something is necessary for a level, nobody will get it.

Randomly firing to open (necessary) hidden passages also costs an inordinate amount of ammo, which I hope wasn't what you intended to do.



The potion thing is also pretty hard to understand, and I didn't quite get it until someone in this thread said "only works if you have that amount and that amount only".

Strategy wise, this is a pain because of how pressing backspace erases what might have been relevant.

I've only seen the panels that tell you what 10 white or 10 blue gives you, and it's a little bit upsetting to know that clearing everything to try and get the opportunity to create a 1UP.


One other peeve I have about it is "unfair deaths", which mainly result in drops that you can't peek at, or random enemy jumps and falls that kill you. I think level 2(?) is an offender of this.
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Syllypryde
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Post by Syllypryde »

Eros wrote:I love the visuals and a lot of the map design, and I'm quite impressed with how things like breakable walls and the potion system were implemented, but I'm kind of frustrated with both.


Breakable walls:
Not all of them have to be obvious, but if there's no way to tell if something is necessary for a level, nobody will get it.
Not all of them are obvious. Many of them are actually hard to find. Some of them are also already open. This fact may allow the player skip them thinking that shooting the wall is necessary for all hidden areas.
Randomly firing to open (necessary) hidden passages also costs an inordinate amount of ammo, which I hope wasn't what you intended to do.
Yes, this is a problem when you play a level for the very first time or even the second. Once you become familiar with a level you should be firing a lot less.
The potion thing is also pretty hard to understand, and I didn't quite get it until someone in this thread said "only works if you have that amount and that amount only".

Strategy wise, this is a pain because of how pressing backspace erases what might have been relevant.

I've only seen the panels that tell you what 10 white or 10 blue gives you, and it's a little bit upsetting to know that clearing everything to try and get the opportunity to create a 1UP.
What might be relevant depends on what it is you are going for. If you are going for a 1-up and accidentally get a pink potion, it is no longer relevant and you will have to clear out the potions to go for the 1-up again. There are other recipes to try for that are not listed anywhere in the game. I believe there is an invincibility powerup, but I am not sure what the combination of potions is.
One other peeve I have about it is "unfair deaths", which mainly result in drops that you can't peek at, or random enemy jumps and falls that kill you. I think level 2(?) is an offender of this.
Several enemies that could contribute to "unfair deaths":

1) The Kreeg Lazer Infantry, Drone V2.0, and the cursed orb can shoot through walls. If you get too close without knowing where they are, they can kill you randomly.

2) Mage of the Ancients- Has a spell that can kill Keen instantly. You must shoot him as soon as you see him. Time is critical.

3) Goblin can zap you when you get too close and he NEVER misses. His spell can also throw Keen when he gets zapped. This can cause Keen to be thrown into something lethal or you are stuck in place until you change back to normal in which you could be killed by another enemy.

4) Uggbug can jump on top of your head when you pogo up high near where he is.

Also there is a death potion recipe. Yes, I said death potion. If you are not careful you could accidentally acquire this combination of potions and actually kill yourself!
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Eros
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Post by Eros »

Syllypryde wrote:
Eros wrote:I love the visuals and a lot of the map design, and I'm quite impressed with how things like breakable walls and the potion system were implemented, but I'm kind of frustrated with both.


Breakable walls:
Not all of them have to be obvious, but if there's no way to tell if something is necessary for a level, nobody will get it.
Not all of them are obvious. Many of them are actually hard to find. Some of them are also already open. This fact may allow the player skip them thinking that shooting the wall is necessary for all hidden areas.
Randomly firing to open (necessary) hidden passages also costs an inordinate amount of ammo, which I hope wasn't what you intended to do.
Yes, this is a problem when you play a level for the very first time or even the second. Once you become familiar with a level you should be firing a lot less.
No but the issue with these is that areas that are necessary to complete the level should never be that subtle. That would be like having invisible gems.

If a mandatory section of a mandatory level is impossible to reach without stumbling around and shooting randomly, it causes issues that can cause enormous disadvantage later into the game.

The first level had a "shoot this" sign, but then nothing else did. It was confusing and frustrating to deal with.

The blue glow bugs are also kind of misleading, though that may intentional.
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kuliwil wrote:I wish that oa;fdjgnae;ogubneaogiearh;igbnerfgoajfsgoefnh
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Syllypryde
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Post by Syllypryde »

Eros wrote:No but the issue with these is that areas that are necessary to complete the level should never be that subtle. That would be like having invisible gems.

If a mandatory section of a mandatory level is impossible to reach without stumbling around and shooting randomly, it causes issues that can cause enormous disadvantage later into the game.

The first level had a "shoot this" sign, but then nothing else did. It was confusing and frustrating to deal with.

The blue glow bugs are also kind of misleading, though that may intentional.
I have been through the game. I completed it once on easy and I am halfway through a second run on easy before I begin my normal and hard runs. The only level I recall that requires shooting through walls in order to complete the level is Cave of Secrets. That is the whole point of the level, to find the secrets. I do not remember this being absolutely necessary in order to complete any other levels and Cave of Secrets is an optional level. Mushroom Mines, Tunnel Network, Understream, Base Gateway, Laserwerks, Base Station, R 'n R District, Podium of Lights and Dark Circuit are the only levels required to complete the game. All else is optional.
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie »

Yeah the only level that requires you to break open walls is the cave of secrets.

Syllypryde, you're way-off on the level thing though :p nearly all the levels are required to finish the game. unless... theres some errors that allow you to skip a whole bunch of levels that i dont know about??

and about the potion thing, well... i dont know what else to do about that. how else could one make it work better or be more understandable? (im okay with it how it is but i wouldnt mind hearing suggestions about changing it).
Wallachian
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Bug

Post by Wallachian »

I suffer that very strange save bug which someone else mentioned. It works OK before Understream. But after that, if i want to load in-level save, level-entrence box appear and then nothing else happens, just black screen with no sound whatsoever.

Because of that, it's merely playable. Due to difficulty, mostly.

However, will it fix starting new game? Or shall i wait for new version?

It's great mod with great atmosfere indeed. I really like music, graphics and enemies and all-around creativity. I love Keen's expression when he's turned into a pot, clock or candle :lol

About another discussed issue: I think there is just some ambiguity about potions. Maybe we need more hints. For instance, i'm not sure if every combination consist of ten potions, so i don't know if i shall try combination of ten potions, elevent potions, just two types of potions etc.

Thank you for great mod, Bernie!
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Post by Bernie »

oh man i have no idea if the error will be fixed if you start a new game. maybe? and thanks for the feedback ;) ill take it onboard why not.
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Syllypryde
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Post by Syllypryde »

Bernie wrote:Yeah the only level that requires you to break open walls is the cave of secrets.

Syllypryde, you're way-off on the level thing though :p nearly all the levels are required to finish the game. unless... theres some errors that allow you to skip a whole bunch of levels that i dont know about??

and about the potion thing, well... i dont know what else to do about that. how else could one make it work better or be more understandable? (im okay with it how it is but i wouldnt mind hearing suggestions about changing it).
In Keen games that have a boss level like this one does, the only levels that are required are levels that block the path to the boss or levels that open up the path to the boss. If we backtrack from the boss to where Keen starts the game you will see why I came up with the levels I did.

Podium of Lights is the boss level. Dark Circuit is required because this is the level that beams Keen up to the Boss. Four circuits are required to activate the Dark Circuit. So the four levels containing the circuits are required (Levelwerks, Base Station, R 'n R District, and Base Gateway, which also blocks the path to the Dark Circuit as well as the other three levels). From there is the bridge to cross the water. 250,000 is all that is required to pay the gnome to extend the bridge. Completing levels is not required to do this. Then from there is three blocker levels that need to be completed, Understream, Tunnel Network and Mushroom Mines.

Why the other levels are not required:

Cave of Secrets. Cave of Illusions and Understream contain the weird gems to unlock the Great Seal. That blocks the path to Crystal Wonderland! and Drea's Domain, which opens the path to Ancient Ruins, Temple of Om, Realm of Lost Magic, Machined Chasm, Cave of Boings, Fountain, a second Drea's Domain and another gnome village. None of the levels located on the far left of the world map are required because none of them lead to the boss level or open up paths to the boss level.

All that is over here are three golden cups (out of five) which are only required in order to access one of the secret levels. Since this secret level is optional all the levels that are required to access this secret level are also optional. So this makes Cave of Secrets, Temple of Om, Machined Chasm, McZazgag's, Standand Secret Level Stuff, and Fountain all optional. (Base Station is required because it contains a circuit.)

The second Drea's Domain is optional because all it does it makes things appear that you cannot access and it also takes away one of your golden cups.

Ancient Ruins, Realm of Lost Magic and Cave of Boings are not required because as I said before none of these levels lead to the boss level or open up access to the boss level.

Since none of the levels on the left side of the world map are required, the first Drea's Domain is not required because all it does it open up access to these optional levels. Crystal Wonderland! only blocks the path to Drea's Domain so it is not required. Since the Great Seal is only required to access these two levels it is also optional. Now that the Great Seal is optional all the levels required to unlock this level are also optional, which are Cave of Secrets and Cave of Illusions (Understream is required because it blocks the path to the boss.)

Cave of Boings, Some Other Game, McZazgag's, and Standard Secret Level Stuff are optional because they are secret levels.

Did I miss anything?

Me personally I did not find the potions all that confusing. Yes, I did at first wonder why the 1-up recipe did not work when I had 10 white potions, but when I noticed I had other color potions, then I came to the conclusion that I need 10 white potions and ONLY 10 white potions. As for recipes not listed in the game, I paid close attention to what potions I had, so when I did a recipe accidentally (stuffed toy, secret level and DEATH!) I knew then what potions I need to complete these recipes.

The save bug is a pain and no, exiting the game and reloading it does not solve the problem.
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