Commander Kylie

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Zilem
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Post by Zilem » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:38

Updated the "Galaxy" mod:
Changing the sprite of Keen 4&5 to the one seen in Keen 6
Image -> Image

and also updated the Map sprite's as well to reflect on this change
Image
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Post by Roobar » Mon Oct 19, 2015 16:09

Image -> Image ?

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Post by VikingBoyBilly » Mon Oct 19, 2015 17:25

hmm... too much cleavage. :sick
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Post by Plasma Captain » Mon Oct 19, 2015 18:16

I sincerely hope wiivn is joking here.

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Post by Zilem » Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:07

wiivn, is that the Marta i have heard so much about?
or merely have nothing better to do...

However, other costumes for Kylie would likely something like this:
Image > Image / Image / Image / Image
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Post by GoldenRishi » Tue Oct 20, 2015 18:06

Zilem wrote:wiivn, is that the Marta i have heard so much about?
or merely have nothing better to do...

However, other costumes for Kylie would likely something like this:
Image > Image / Image / Image / Image
The concept is cool (Keen is missing female characters), but I think the first two sprites needs a little work. Her face and several body features are still quite masculine, but on the latter three its immediately recognizable as a female character.

EDIT: To be more useful/constructive:

Her torso doesn't quite look right. It needs to be a bit slenderer, I think, because she has a barrel-like torso that's not very feminine. What is her age? She wouldn't have breasts if she's Billy's age, so the primary gender difference is long vs short hair or gender-typed clothes. Perhaps you could drape part of her long hair over her shoulders on the front, to make it look more obviously like long hair and not a cape/jetpack? Maybe make her arm a pixel slimmer? Her arms/torso I think are the main things keeping her looking masculine.

The skirt is difficult to see, although perhaps it comes off better in the running animation, but it might need to be more pronounced. An alternative option is just to keep the pants or maybe do capris. Also, maybe make her shoes look different? Not more feminine, just maybe different so you continue to give her her own unique look.
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Post by VikingBoyBilly » Tue Oct 20, 2015 18:52

Zilem wrote:wiivn, is that the Marta i have heard so much about?
or merely have nothing better to do...
This is Marta:
Image

Notice she was directly edited from Keen's galaxy sprite, but she's still noticeably a different character (that may be against the point of Kylee, but bear with me).

I think the most striking difference is the absence of a helmet, leaving more room for hair. Red lips and pink shoes also help establish the gender, but I admit it's cultural cliches. No breasts were needed... I didn't want to put that on an 8-year old :sick

I don't know what the answer is for Kylee, but I'll echo that the last three sprites look remarkably less like keen-in-drag than the first two. I think it's the helmet, as it restricts the space on her head to show her hair, and I don't think a helmet and a ponytail would be comfortable.
Image
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Post by GoldenRishi » Tue Oct 20, 2015 18:58

VikingBoyBilly wrote:
Zilem wrote:wiivn, is that the Marta i have heard so much about?
or merely have nothing better to do...
This is Marta:
Image

Notice she was directly edited from Keen's galaxy sprite, but she's still noticeably a different character (that may be against the point of Kylee, but bear with me).

I think the most striking difference is the absence of a helmet, leaving more room for hair. Red lips and pink shoes also help establish the gender, but I admit it's cultural cliches. No breasts were needed... I didn't want to put that on an 8-year old :sick

I don't know what the answer is for Kylee, but I'll echo that the last three sprites look remarkably less like keen-in-drag than the first two. I think it's the helmet, as it restricts the space on her head to show her hair, and I don't think a helmet and a ponytail would be comfortable.
Yeah, the helmet may get too much in the way. Perhaps she could have a jersey or something else?
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Post by Plasma Captain » Tue Oct 20, 2015 19:37

So... she should avoid protecting her skull in favour of looking more feminine? What?

It's not the clothing, it's just some minor details. Here, take a look at this. On the left is the last version of Commander Kylie. On the right is the original Commander Keen sprite. In the middle is my new revision.

Image

Changes made:

* Her bangs were pulled back a little, and shading was added beneath them. I feel that the original bangs looked more like flat eyebrows. Additionally, this has the effect of making her hairline look more smooth and round.

* Her nose was made a little smaller. The old nose looks pretty flat, even on Keen.

* Some shading was added to soften her jawline.

* The arm was pulled back a bit, not necessarily to make her arm thinner, but to make her shoulder lighter.

* Shading was added to her stomach, adding more definition to her torso. (For those wondering about the chest issue, Zilem mentioned in the first post of this thread that Kylie is a teenager.)

* Her feet were made just one pixel shorter, and I made a few other revisions to them.

Nothing else was changed. No need for lipstick or makeup or blush or funny skirts or anything like that.

I'm not sure how anybody could look at this and not realize that it's a girl now.

I... don't believe that I've read through this whole thread, so I don't really know how Zilem feels about people offering advice/help, so I apologize in advance if I am intruding in any way here.

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Post by GoldenRishi » Tue Oct 20, 2015 20:50

Plasma Captain wrote:So... she should avoid protecting her skull in favour of looking more feminine? What?
I'm not sure I see that argument. The point of a female character is to be visibly female, I would think. In 4-bit graphics, that's not super easy, so overt ques are sort of necessary.

Personally, I like the idea of the no-helmet because it doesn't make her look like an attempt at being a female Keen clone, but instead a similar but still unique character. It'd be cool if Tom Hall still had control over Keen, I imagine we'd have some more gender and racially diverse characters in the Keen universe.
Plasma Captain wrote: It's not the clothing, it's just some minor details. Here, take a look at this. On the left is the last version of Commander Kylie. On the right is the original Commander Keen sprite. In the middle is my new revision.

Image

Changes made:

* Her bangs were pulled back a little, and shading was added beneath them. I feel that the original bangs looked more like flat eyebrows. Additionally, this has the effect of making her hairline look more smooth and round.

* Her nose was made a little smaller. The old nose looks pretty flat, even on Keen.

* Some shading was added to soften her jawline.

* The arm was pulled back a bit, not necessarily to make her arm thinner, but to make her shoulder lighter.

* Shading was added to her stomach, adding more definition to her torso. (For those wondering about the chest issue, Zilem mentioned in the first post of this thread that Kylie is a teenager.)

* Her feet were made just one pixel shorter, and I made a few other revisions to them.

Nothing else was changed. No need for lipstick or makeup or blush or funny skirts or anything like that.

I'm not sure how anybody could look at this and not realize that it's a girl now.

I... don't believe that I've read through this whole thread, so I don't really know how Zilem feels about people offering advice/help, so I apologize in advance if I am intruding in any way here.
I like your changes, but I'm still a bit skeeved out by a female character who's the analog of an 8 year old, but with boobs. If it were intended that she were older, this might be less awkward, lol.

(But if we are to give her boobs, her left breast and her right breast should be in isometric projection, so her right breast should be lower... )
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Post by Keening_Product » Tue Oct 20, 2015 22:20

Does masculinity matter, as has been suggested above? People of all genders look more masculine or more feminine than others.
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Post by GoldenRishi » Tue Oct 20, 2015 22:39

Keening_Product wrote:Does masculinity matter, as has been suggested above? People of all genders look more masculine or more feminine than others.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, Zilem can speak for him/herself, but I think the point is to have a female Keen-like character. I think it sort of defeats the point if the character looks like a boy and doesn't really look like a girl.
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Post by Ceilick » Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:57

GoldenRishi wrote:Perhaps I'm mistaken, Zilem can speak for him/herself, but I think the point is to have a female Keen-like character. I think it sort of defeats the point if the character looks like a boy and doesn't really look like a girl.
Indeed, I'm interpreting the character as simply a female alternate/representation/whatever for Commander Keen, not necessarily a 'new' character. Essentially, Kylie Blaze eight year old genius, donning her brother's football helmet to become Commander Keen, etc etc. Is this correct, Zilem?

If that's the case, it'd certainly be hard to remove the helmet and still call her Commander Keen. The helmet is iconic. I think PlasmaCaptain has exactly the right idea, subtle cues in the face and body structure, as well as shading, to further the appearance of a girl. Re breasts, torso, etc, I think everything can be accomplished on the default keen sprite by just shading it differently, perhaps with more focus on her waist than chest.

This is what I tried to do to an extent with my Lindsey sprite for netkeen (although Lindsey is generally accepted as an older character)

Image

VikingBoyBilly wrote:Notice she was directly edited from Keen's galaxy sprite, but she's still noticeably a different character (that may be against the point of Kylee, but bear with me)... I don't know what the answer is for Kylee, but I'll echo that the last three sprites look remarkably less like keen-in-drag than the first two.
I think the point about Kylie looking overtly like an edited Keen sprite is t
a strong case here. Obviously, in attempting to make a Commander Keen female alternate, making it different and still Keen is going to be tough. Zilem, you've made great progress so far in differentiating, particularly with clothing, I think with a few more subtle alterations and you'll accomplish your goal.

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Post by Plasma Captain » Wed Oct 21, 2015 13:46

GoldenRishi wrote:
Plasma Captain wrote:So... she should avoid protecting her skull in favour of looking more feminine? What?
I'm not sure I see that argument. The point of a female character is to be visibly female, I would think. In 4-bit graphics, that's not super easy, so overt ques are sort of necessary.
I respectfully disagree.
GoldenRishi wrote:Personally, I like the idea of the no-helmet because it doesn't make her look like an attempt at being a female Keen clone
She... is female Keen. That's the whole idea:
Zilem wrote:Yes, she is Billy to some extend. but i'm fairly sure a 'you' from an alternate dimension, will be like 'you' to some extend, when with gender swap.
GoldenRishi wrote:I like your changes, but I'm still a bit skeeved out by a female character who's the analog of an 8 year old, but with boobs. If it were intended that she were older, this might be less awkward, lol.
Well, again, as I mentioned in my list of changes:
Plasma Captain wrote:* Shading was added to her stomach, adding more definition to her torso. (For those wondering about the chest issue, Zilem mentioned in the first post of this thread that Kylie is a teenager.)
Which, again, is revealed in the first post of this thread:
Zilem wrote:There is a reason for her physical older appearance. she is a Teen 13-15y
GoldenRishi wrote:(But if we are to give her boobs, her left breast and her right breast should be in isometric projection, so her right breast should be lower... )
Hm... I guess I can understand why you'd do that, though her face isn't skewed. That would look pretty weird, wouldn't it? I kind of think of it as a perspective issue. The "camera" is aimed directly at the player's upper region, which is why the face is seen dead-on (and when running, it's viewed directly from the side) while the feet are a little skewed.

Anyway, you can change her chest shading in this manner, but I think it looks worse, personally:

Image

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Post by GoldenRishi » Wed Oct 21, 2015 19:24

Plasma Captain wrote:
GoldenRishi wrote:Personally, I like the idea of the no-helmet because it doesn't make her look like an attempt at being a female Keen clone
She... is female Keen. That's the whole idea:
Zilem wrote:Yes, she is Billy to some extend. but i'm fairly sure a 'you' from an alternate dimension, will be like 'you' to some extend, when with gender swap.
Ah, very good. Fair enough.
Plasma wrote:
Plasma Captain wrote:* Shading was added to her stomach, adding more definition to her torso. (For those wondering about the chest issue, Zilem mentioned in the first post of this thread that Kylie is a teenager.)
Which, again, is revealed in the first post of this thread:
Zilem wrote:There is a reason for her physical older appearance. she is a Teen 13-15y
Ah, good. That's much less gross then.
Plasma wrote:Hm... I guess I can understand why you'd do that, though her face isn't skewed. That would look pretty weird, wouldn't it? I kind of think of it as a perspective issue. The "camera" is aimed directly at the player's upper region, which is why the face is seen dead-on (and when running, it's viewed directly from the side) while the feet are a little skewed.

Anyway, you can change her chest shading in this manner, but I think it looks worse, personally:

Image
I actually prefer the latter. And yes, in the original sprite, the face is dead-on but the feet are skewed --the only problem is that Keen would actually have to twisting his torso for him to ever actually look like that. But yeah, this is a matter of how you want to draw the forced perspective on sprites, and is a matter of artistic choice.

Also, it looks like her belly is under the shirt, I can't tell if that's a belt or her midriff. I might suggest changing the color of the belt or extending the shirt down.

I still argue that draping hair over her shoulder would also look good and make her hair immediately recognizable as hair.
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