Mario vs Keen

A general chat area, here you can post anything that doesn't belong in another forum.

So...

Mario is way better. Console games are better than computer ones!
1
5%
I like Mario a little more.
1
5%
They're about the same for me.
3
15%
Keen has the edge.
2
10%
Keen's clearly superior. And so is the computer over consoles.
13
65%
 
Total votes: 20

PandoricaShark
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Post by PandoricaShark »

I'd like to point out that I agree entirely with everyone who's said "who cares if it's console or computer". That's my entire argument. If I felt like spending the day deconstructing an argument on the internet thoroughly, I would waste my time doing that. Instead, I'm going to do it somewhat less than thoroughly.

But first,
Mario is also, how long running? And it spans how many genres?
This is a bad point, in my opinion. Things should live and things should die. The only reason it is going on so long is because there are many hardcore fans who simply don't know of anything better.
Thank you for not addressing the point I made about not every consumer being an idiot (if you did address that point please point it out to me). The reason that I mentioned the genres thing is because saying that every mario game sucks is impossible, because there's so many that the laws of probability state at least one of them has to be good, when you take into account the endless praise for the cardinal games, the massive popularity, and the fact that a variety of developers have tackled a variety of concepts with the same character means a variety of outcomes, not just all "they all suck". Mario Kart is a completely different game to other Mario games. It's also one of the best multiplayer game series there is if you forget that Double Dash happened. This isn't "people are being tricked into thinking that it's good" sort of thing like those audio cable scams. You can't really do that.

The point is, there are many mario games of varying quality and varying genre. When I pointed out genre, I wasn't making another point about the length of mario game series. I was making a point about it's quality. You might think the platform mechanics of mario are too inferior for your sophisticated pc gamer world, but the clever badge mechanics of the Mario RPGs and the way they mix random encounters and turn-based mechanics with real-time play are examples of how the platform games aren't the only ones that matter, but the side games like the RPGs are pretty cool too if you play them. Paper Mario is a nice, simple, enjoyable RPG with some complexities and strategy required and it enchants a younger audience while still being enjoyable to an older one.

What does this mean? It means that Mario isn't comparable to the keen series. Every keen game is a platformer, without exception. Not every mario game is though. There's racers and baseball and soccer and RPGs and all sorts of delicious I already forgot how I begun this sentence. They aren't all side scrollers. The comparison becomes invalid. Unless we're only talking Mario platformers here, in which case, you're cutting out a large chunk of the mario games, and some of the best at that too. Mario games are superior in gameplay mechanics, level design, music (definitely) and nowadays, graphics too. That's not just because of technical advancement. Check out Mario and Luigi superstar saga.

As for "things should live and things should die", I only meet people on the internet who say that about things they don't like. I suppose your argument is they've run out of ideas. Congratulations on never having played New Super Mario Bros. Any of them. Or Super Mario Galaxy. Or not even having the vaguest knowledge of what happens in Super Mario Galaxy. The levels use their mechanics in clever ways and add new ones that haven't been in Mario games beforehand.

On a series basis, Mario > Keen. This is beyond debate.

If you want to start going by individual games, by all means do. Certainly, Goodbye Galaxy > The original Super mario brothers. But none of the NES mario brothers afterwards. But then we're really starting to get out of the argument into a pointless territory that'll get kind of boring.

I'm not feeling particularly eloquent this afternoon, so I don't seem to be able to find the right word for what I'm getting at with Mario's variety of genres. I feel I have made my point mostly. Onwards.
Joysticks = fail. They are an attempt to make the computer more like a console.
Lets say that a computer is high brow, and a nintendo system is low brow.
Aaah, here we go.

Now I totally understand your reasoning.

And it's stupid.

I should not be able to type "PC vs console debate" and get people having a debate about this because it's stupid.

It becomes evident that we require webcomics, and if I seriously have to explain the joke in this one, I swear someone's getting <s>murdered</s> a birthday present.

Image

Despite Scarlet's lack of reason for how Nintendo is inherently lowbrow (because Zelda totally lacks depth and is a shallow experience amirite) I think I've seen what his point is. It's that the there's a lack of strategy, and leniency towards action. His unstated argument must be that because analog sticks and joysticks are imprecise they must be for those who rely on twitch reflexes and prefer only action gun games and those sorts of things. They must be INHERENTLY BAD. Like how the iPad is for the dumb-downed rednecks of america, so too must the venerated console controller be for the lowest caste in the gaming hierarchy.

This is why he thinks Keen is better than Mario. Because Keen uses a D-Pad, with four precise directions that you know will go the way you want. Because there's no run button, therefore it's not an ACTION-Y kind of game. You can't be running and fall into a chasm because of your own shortsightedness like in Mario. I refuse to believe that your friends got you to do the more challenging parts of the games, especially considering how you felt using keen sprites, tiles and sound effects in an affectionate tribute to the keen games was an offense to keen. Quite frankly, I find it hard to believe you'd touch the things after that. You clearly harbor some sort of resentment towards Mario.

Besides, look at all the BUTTONS on keyboards. You can TEXT ADVENTURE them. You can do TEXT things, like how you can't use text in scribblenauts, a highly inventive game that rewards creativity.

For anyone who hasn't gotten my point yet, Scarlet seems to be saying something along the lines of "Chess is better than football because there's precision and tactics whereas football is for dumbed-down people who like kicking things and dragging something beyond it's time because they're dumb." Chess = highbrow while football = lowbrow sort of argument. Nintendo is for the football audience whereas Chess is for the PC gamer audience

garg.

I shouldn't even have to explain this. I don't even think I can be bothered. The mere fact that you think consoles are an addiction and you're just hammering away at buttons shows you don't fully understand the relationship between the controller and the game. There is no counter-argument for this because there's no other way you couldn't understand this. This is the view that parents who've never played a vindiotron in their life have. This is why those parents think that games are stupid.

I addressed your point about this "just hammering away at buttons" looking at a screen in my earlier post. Everything boils down to that kind of thing. PC games are just hammering at a keyboard while looking at a screen. That's what it all boils down to. It's oversimplification to say that about PC games, but it's also oversimplification to say that about console games.

Not to mention the vast variety of console games that are precise strategy games like ADVANCE WARS for starters. FIRE EMBLEM sorry I must have some sort of tourette's where I list examples of HALO WARS that thing I just said.

Your arguments don't hold up with your counter arguments. They just don't gel. You have a prejudice against console games that you seem to have held from your youth for a reason that you'll either lie about (you thought they were garg and unfair because you can't be precise maybe? dragging on a conflict from your youth between you and the dreaded nintendo kids?) or you've lied about earlier things making your argument about PC games being better tie itself up. You're points aren't holding up with the way you've said things earlier.

Let's conclude. With a quote from you that I will take as something to judge the rest of your comments by.
Ckeen, that is just your opinion.
This is the classic "I have no rational reason but may not even be admitting it to myself" response. If you can just dismiss CKeen's post as his opinion, can we not all do that? After all, it's just "your opinion" that console games are lowbrow. It's just "your opinion" that Keen is even a good game. Earlier in the MKF thread where you said that's a slap in the face to keen? WOOPS, IT'S JUST YOUR OPINION SCARLET. You've entirely invalidated your own argument. After all, if you can dismiss CKeen's argument with "YOUR OPINION", why can't I dismiss yours? Yes, that woud mean you could dismiss mine, but that would just be "YOUR OPINION". We'd all be wrong, but most of all, you'd be wrong.

You have no frame of reference on console addiction because you don't own a console. You sound like you're a parent who's out of touch with their child's interest. In fact, you sound like someone saying that all movies suck in the cinema despite cinema being a dedicated movie venue, when made for tv movies are inherently better and besides TV shows movies anyway. Because all you do in a cinema is sit there and look at a screen in a dark room, whereas on TV you can change channels, and SOMETIMES, YOU CAN USE A DISC MENU.

In conclusion oh boy lunch time.
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matonen
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Post by matonen »

Scarlet wrote:Keen on the other hand - you need some skill sometimes! I can't tell you how many of my friends just threw keen away because they sucked at controlling his movement. Consoles dumbed them down.
Wow, I felt like throwing my computer out the window after reading that.

Thankfully after reading CKeen's and Pandorica's posts I decided not to.

Here is some video footage from a wonderful NES game called Battletoads - just for you Scarlet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idZ9C0Qtj2A
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Post by Dynamo »

matonen wrote:stuff
yo matonen, I sent you a PM.

Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOkcfM7-JiE cough. A pity the guy sucks at playing.
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Scarlet
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Post by Scarlet »

THEN DO NOT START DISCUSSIONS LIKE THIS ONE. About as civil as I can get this statement said.
Because I am not a chicken and I do not lay eggs does not mean that I am not capable of noticing which egg is a bad egg and which is a good egg.

I see nothing wrong in not playing games much. As I said, I watch games on youtube. I find more enjoyment in that- because I have played them in the past, and because modern games just suck.


I... what. I own around 300 games if not more
That is insane, in my opinion.
The times certainly have changed from the 1990s when such a thing was unthinkable.


What??? Dumbed down audience? What the hell are you talking about? Most of the console games I played are harder than computer games.
To be really good at some then yeah, you gotta play them so much. But, to be able to get the jist of them - well for that the audience is indeed dumbed down.
I have tried introducing Keen to some younger kids. They suck miserably at it. And they give up very fast. Keen was for a smarter audience.




I'm not even gonna bother reading what Shark wrote.






Here is some video footage from a wonderful NES game called Battletoads - just for you Scarlet:
That game is downright miserable. Just look at the graphics. It's exactly the kind of thing that is good for ruining ones eyes.

Even nintendo came out and admitted this to some extent - http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/entertainme ... 3dnintendo

Nintendo = avoid.
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Post by Dynamo »

Quotes go here

Honestly this ridiculous argument has gone way too far and I intend to lay down the facts right now and I want YOU to prove them wrong.

1) video games were originally for consoles thus consoles/console games are to be considered the truest form of videogame
2) computer games have been influenced by console games in endless ways and a lot of good pc games are simply rip-off of console games in a way or another
3) Keen is a rip-off of Mario. Just like every 2d platformer. Therefore because you earlier said "it's useless to play a game that is a rip-off of another", you shouldn't play keen and you should only play SMB1.
4) Every attack you made on console games applies to computer games as well making your arguments ridiculous and laughable as I've stated 100 times already
5) You generalize everything and only show your ignorance in terms of gaming.

Now, I wanna see you come up with arguments to destroy these five points I made.
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GARGapplesauce
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Post by GARGapplesauce »

CKeen wrote:Okay. Now I'm really pissed. Once again every point you made here is either completely retarded or completely false. Therefore I am going to ask you this: Are you trolling?

I surely hope you are, because otherwise I'm going to make a post that's worth of the nickname I'm wearing. And I'm pretty sure no one wants to see that.
No, I'm not trolling. I don't care if you don't like me. BUTT OUT.
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Post by Genius314 »

Scarlet wrote:I have tried introducing Keen to some younger kids. They suck miserably at it. And they give up very fast. Keen was for a smarter audience.
Goddamn, enough with the agism garg. I've been playing Keen since I was, what, three years old? I've never had any problem adapting to it.
Scarlet wrote:That game is downright miserable. Just look at the graphics. It's exactly the kind of thing that is good for ruining ones eyes.
Clearly you've never seen a CGA game using the cyan/magenta palette. If anything can ruin your eyes, its one of those.
Scarlet wrote:Even nintendo came out and admitted this to some extent - http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/entertainme ... 3dnintendo
Right, because 3D TVs and monitors don't exist. There are 3D console games and there are 3D computer games. At least Nintendo is doing the responsible thing and admitting that there might be a problem.
Scarlet wrote:The only reason it is going on so long is because there are many hardcore fans who simply don't know of anything better.
This sounds like it could also apply to your view on Commander Keen.
Scarlet wrote:Trust me, most keen gamers did not have to update their computers much.

Meanwhile consoles are like an addiction. A drug. They always make a new one. People spend far more on consoles than on computers. Hey, a new ones is coming out next year ! It's called N-Addicto.
This makes absolutely no sense. The only reason anyone would buy a newer console is to play a more modern game. If you want to stick to DOS games, sure, you don't need to upgrade your computer. Same thing with consoles though - if you want to stick to the old games, you only need the console they were made for.
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Post by StupidBunny »

You know what? Scarlet hates console games. And...I didn't want to take sides, but Scarlet has pretty stupid-ass reasons for hating console games (I won't try and back up this claim as the reasons I think apply have already been stated many times). But the fact is, that isn't going to change. You all can keep arguing this, but I think at this point it's long been obvious that nobody's going to convince anybody of anything.
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Post by Paramultart »

Consoles predating the PS2 were actually good.

Xbox 360, Wii, and PS3 are a joke.
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GARGapplesauce
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Post by GARGapplesauce »

Paramultart wrote:Consoles predating the PS2 were actually good.

Xbox 360, Wii, and PS3 are a joke.
Eh, I kind of agree... the XBOX360 actually has some really good points.

Wii lacks in a lot... I mean a LOT of areas. It was still a revolutionary concept, it just could have been better. I'm sure the Nintendo Wii 2 Or 3DWii will be a bit better.

The PS3 should be used as toilet paper.

Just my opinion, though.
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PandoricaShark
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Post by PandoricaShark »

Because I am not a chicken and I do not lay eggs does not mean that I am not capable of noticing which egg is a bad egg and which is a good egg.

I see nothing wrong in not playing games much. As I said, I watch games on youtube. I find more enjoyment in that- because I have played them in the past, and because modern games just suck.
At first I thought you were just prejudiced but now I see that you're a total retard/stubborn egoist who refuses to let go of his poorly researched arguments.
That game is downright miserable. Just look at the graphics. It's exactly the kind of thing that is good for ruining ones eyes.

Even nintendo came out and admitted this to some extent - http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/entertainme ... 3dnintendo

Nintendo = avoid.
Scarlet, that is just your opinion.
I'm not even gonna bother reading what Shark wrote.
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GARGapplesauce
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Post by GARGapplesauce »

It seems to me that almost all of these forums are dissolving into corrupted, useless discussion and fighting. My feeling is that any forum that goes this far off-topic should just be locked.
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Post by Nospike »

Righto. Tulip? :begging
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Post by Dynamo »

GARGapplesauce wrote:
CKeen wrote:Okay. Now I'm really pissed. Once again every point you made here is either completely retarded or completely false. Therefore I am going to ask you this: Are you trolling?

I surely hope you are, because otherwise I'm going to make a post that's worth of the nickname I'm wearing. And I'm pretty sure no one wants to see that.
No, I'm not trolling. I don't care if you don't like me. BUTT OUT.
I wasn't talking to you, smartass.
GARGapplesauce wrote:It seems to me that almost all of these forums are dissolving into corrupted, useless discussion and fighting. My feeling is that any forum that goes this far off-topic should just be locked.
You didn't even take part in this discussion so you shouldn't even have any right to speak. This discussion is stupid and useless because Scarlet refuses to accept any form of reasoning and comes up with retarded arguments that are either entirely subjective or false. This is it. Do not blame all of us for it.
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Post by VikingBoyBilly »

Genius314 wrote:
Scarlet wrote:I have tried introducing Keen to some younger kids. They suck miserably at it. And they give up very fast. Keen was for a smarter audience.
Goddamn, enough with the agism garg. I've been playing Keen since I was, what, three years old? I've never had any problem adapting to it.
You also weren't spoiled with the new age games that hold your hand, I presume.
I've done the same thing with a 5 year old and an 8 year old not too long ago and they gave up before finishing the first level.

EDIT: I just read that nintendo 3DS article, and it was a warning about it hindering the development of young children's eyes. It didn't say anything about it looking bad at all.
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