Religion discussion

Derpenstein · Post by **Derpenstein** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 18:58

The whole idea of a "Perfect God" being susceptible to petty human emotions such as anger and jealousy seems just a tad bit hypocritical to be honest. He also seems to be in quite the hurry to cut his creation's life-span despite knowing their final destination.
I also don't think that humans, as stupid and temporary as we are, should be given the choice to make eternal decisions, especially when the Christian God seems to think it's okay to throw evil demonic forces in the mix to influence mankind's eternal decision, and meanwhile being extremely quiet and vague about the truth.

Then again, crafting arguments or whining about how we think something is unfair with our human logic doesn't really change anything.

Although I have my problems with Christianity, it still doesn't deserve the amount of flack it gets. One church consisting of about 40 members seems to have been adopted by the media as Christianity's mascot... Meanwhile, people are becoming increasingly terrified to even make a whisper criticizing Islam in recent years. In my opinion, there is no religion quite as foul, violent, and corrupt as Islam, and the constant comparisons between Christianity and Islam are appalling and unfair.

I just don't understand why people are so hateful towards Christians and so tolerant with Muslims is all.

RoboBlue · Post by **RoboBlue** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 19:32

Lava89 wrote:@RoboBlue: About hitler, your original condition was if a loyal Christian can miss the mark-- since when does a "loyal' Christian kill God's chosen people and dabble in the occult? Both of which are considered to be evil in the Bible.

EDIT:

RoboBlue wrote: Like me?
That was clearly rhetorical and not directed toward anyone in particular. I was just trying to show how pride could a bigger problem than someone getting a little ahead of themselves.

As for Job, God did not tempt Job. Yes, he let Satan afflict Job, but he was given the choice of either praising God or cursing him. Job was given a situation in which he might come to that point. Its not different than the Garden of Eden, God didn't tempt Adam and Eve with the apple, he simply gave them opportunity to make a choice. The devil on the other hand enticed them to disobey God. God never bent down and dared Job to try and curse him.

God was tempted by Satan's challenge though, wasn't he?
As far as loyalty goes, the Pharisees also killed God's people for similar reasons. I totally forgot about the occult stuff though.

Lava89 · Post by **Lava89** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 19:36

Why would God be tempted by an inferior being when he is all knowing? It's not like Satan got the one up on God or pulled the wool over his eyes. God weighed Satan's argument and allowed him to afflict Job. Not to mention the fact that God knew Satan was going to accuse Job before he even did it.

Post by **Flaose** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 21:29

MOM4Evr wrote:Flaose: Most likely agnostic, but would rather not get tied up in a giant discussion (for which I don't really blame him)...believes that some, if not all, of the books in the Bible aren't canon. Dislikes Song of Solomon especially.

Incorrect on the first point, but correct on the second (which I imagine lead to the original erroneous conclusion). When it comes to the canonicity of Biblical books, canon is established by the various churches/Christian denominations (with most Protestant ones using the ones in the King James Version). I just think it's foolish to believe that the books are without errors.

MOM4Evr wrote:And what external evidence is this? (Yes, I can haz open this box)

Evidence that the creation started more than 6000ish years ago (that is ~6011 years + 6 days):

Age of the Earth
Age of the Solar System
Age of the Galaxy
Age of the Universe

Take your pick, I'm not sure what you consider "the heavens" in the heavens and the earth.

MOM4Evr wrote:the culture back then placed a huge emphasis in memorizing giant stories word-for-word

You've said this multiple times. It's something I've never heard before. where'd you learn it (or, I guess, what's your source)?

MOM4Evr wrote:This being said, I do recognize that Christians don't necessarily have to believe in a 100% literal interpretation of the Bible to go to Heaven, but I believe that it's a good idea (For reasons I've outlined before; I can reiterate them more clearly in one place if you want).

MOM4Evr wrote:[Speaking of Ceilick] Wonders why it is so important that the Bible be taken literally, as some "Christians" he knows or has heard of don't.

In the first quote you try and appear more accepting of others' opinions, but I believe the second quote reveals your true feelings for those that aren't Biblical literalists like yourself.

Related to that,

MOM4Evr wrote:Actually, Mormon. Not Christian. There's a big difference.

False. Christian is an umbrella term to describe all people who believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour. As such, Catholics, Protestants (including those of the Orthodox faiths), Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and those of the more obscure churches are all Christians.

I'm not a big fan of Apples, but it would be ludicrous for me to say that an iMac isn't a computer because it does things a little differently than my desktop PC. I get the biggest laugh from extreme Evangelicals who are so anti-"works" (works being the need to do some sort of outward performances, such as baptism, to be saved) that they insist the Catholic Church, their 500-year removed ancestor, isn't Christian!

RoboBlue wrote:If God's so perfect why do good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people?

Just as good parents don't trap us indoors for our whole lives to protect us from "the real world", God removes us from His physical presence, gives us free will, and lets us learn and grow from the experience. Some people use their free will poorly and make life miserable for themselves and others, others do the opposite. God wants us to return to Him and gives us His Son to make it possible, if we choose to follow Him.

So why do good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people?
Because God loves us.

Lava89 · Post by **Lava89** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 21:56

Flaose wrote:
False. Christian is an umbrella term to describe all people who believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour. As such, Catholics, Protestants (including those of the Orthodox faiths), Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and those of the more obscure churches are all Christians.

I'm not a big fan of Apples, but it would be ludicrous for me to say that an iMac isn't a computer because it does things a little differently than my desktop PC. I get the biggest laugh from extreme Evangelicals who are so anti-"works" (works being the need to do some sort of outward performances, such as baptism, to be saved) that they insist the Catholic Church, their 500-year removed ancestor, isn't Christian!

I'm a Protestant Christian, but I also believe Catholics and those of the Orthodox share my religion because their savior is the same as mine. However, is it not true that Mormon's believe that Jesus is the brother of Lucifer or that he had a continued ministry in the Americas? Or that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is an arch-angel? The personality and nature of Jesus differs between Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.

By definition, the word "Christian", can be a large umbrella term that applies. But the question I ask is, which Christ are we talking about?

Eros · Post by **Eros** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 23:17

kuliwil wrote:we're not as smart as we think, we can't always diciple ourselves.
Please tell me then, by that definition that you gave, that the human race is God's greatest creation and a positive thing. Because we're garg and we know it.

proof that there's intelligent life out there: none of them have contacted us.

Lava89 wrote:There's a difference between enticing \ tempting people to do something and merely giving them an opportunity to make a choice.

yes, "believe in me and make continuous sacrifices all in my name or die and go to hell" sounds like a very unbiased decision (actually, the second option is inferred, because that's what usually comes from 'believers' at evolutionary talks).

Derpenstein wrote:Although I have my problems with Christianity, it still doesn't deserve the amount of flack it gets. One church consisting of about 40 members seems to have been adopted by the media as Christianity's mascot... Meanwhile, people are becoming increasingly terrified to even make a whisper criticizing Islam in recent years. In my opinion, there is no religion quite as foul, violent, and corrupt as Islam, and the constant comparisons between Christianity and Islam are appalling and unfair.

I just don't understand why people are so hateful towards Christians and so tolerant with Muslims is all.

because most of the people who go to evolutionary talks are christians who go ahead and say "i know the truth and i'm going to live forever in the afterlife and you can go burn in hell". i thought christianity was a religion that extruded love!

also, in the middle ages, the only people who could read the bible were clerics and priests, which means that they easily could've (and had) twisted the book and said things like "and on the second stone block of the commandments, 'thou shalt not kill, and hey -- be sure to give half your wealth to the nice priests who will save you'".

the only reason why islam is getting a bad rap is because of those arrogant terrorists, whose self-hypnotism eventually says "by exploding in a shower of blood and guts all the while killing dozens if not hundreds of people, you can forever been seen as a hero in the eyes of the omnipotent creator".

what the fucl, universe?

Post by **Ceilick** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 23:40

Lava89 · Post by **Lava89** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 23:49

Eros wrote: yes, "believe in me and make continuous sacrifices all in my name or die and go to hell" sounds like a very unbiased decision (actually, the second option is inferred, because that's what usually comes from 'believers' at evolutionary talks).

Don't forget that the original question was about whether God could tempt people to do evil and specifically in the story of Job. Which is what I was referring to, in context.

Eros wrote:because most of the people who go to evolutionary talks are christians who go ahead and say "i know the truth and i'm going to live forever in the afterlife and you can go burn in hell". i thought christianity was a religion that extruded love!

You seem to be making two logical fallacies: a sweeping generalization and a straw man argument. Simply because people have expressed a belief in an un-loving way does not make it the antithesis of love.

Eros · Post by **Eros** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 0:04

well, even if it doesn't have those traits, if no one cares about how that works out, it might as well not exist in the first place.

Pokota · Post by **Pokota** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:16

MOVING ON...

How is a Mormon not a Christian? Just... someone please explain to me why someone in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints wouldn't see Jesus Christ as their savior and redeemer?

Deltamatic · Post by **Deltamatic** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:28

Different people assign different concepts to the word "Christian". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard in some non-Mormon church that Mormons thought humans could attain a sort of apotheosis, so those people didn't think that Mormons were Christians since they think of Christians as monotheistic.

Pokota · Post by **Pokota** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:42

There's a subtle difference between believing in plural gods and worshipping plural gods. We believe that we can become like unto God, but that doesn't mean that we're going to worship each other because of that potential. And if you ask me, saying that we're polytheistic because we believe that man can be exalted is a bit silly; if anything, you should be saying that because we believe that God the Father and Jesus the Son have separate, distinct, physical bodies.

Post by **Flaose** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:46

Lava89 wrote:However, is it not true that Mormon's believe that Jesus is the brother of Lucifer or that he had a continued ministry in the Americas? Or that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is an arch-angel? The personality and nature of Jesus differs between Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Yes. This is all true. The key to understanding many of the beliefs of Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses is that they (as well as Levellass, apparently) reject the Nicene Creed (specifically the part "being of one substance with the Father") as a false creation of man, rather believing that God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate beings, being One only in purpose, not in substance. One of the scriptures that they feel supports this is the prayer of John 17 which says, in part,

'Neither pray I for [my disciples] alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.'

Mormons believe that all people are literally spirit children of God (i.e. that God is literally the Father of our spirits, just like our earthly fathers are literally fathers of our bodies). With that is the belief that mankind had a pre-mortal existence with God, that all angels are pre- or post-mortal human beings sent as God's messengers to mortal humanity, and that demons are those who were cast out of God's presence for rebellion during this pre-mortal existence. Also counted among God's spirit children were Jesus and Lucifer (Satan), Lucifer leading those who would become demons in rebellion against God. So not only do Mormons believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, but that all people, angels, and demons, are their brothers and sisters.

The Book of Mormon does speak of Jesus, after His resurrection, appearing and ministering to part of the House of Israel that has been led away from Jerusalem to the Americas, but I'll let Pokota talk about that, if he wishes (or I'll do it myself, but later).

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is the first-born of all creation, the first created spirit creature of Jehovah God (the Father), and that by him and through him all other things were created, including us. The pre- and post-mortal Jesus Christ is known Michael, the Archangel, who fought against the spirit creature Satan (the Dragon) and his rebellious followers, as well as over the body of Moses. Two thousand years ago, Jehovah God transferred the life-force of Michael into the womb of Mary and she gave birth to a perfect Son, the Son of God.

Though both these belief systems are quite different form mainstream Christianity, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses both believe that Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God, and that it is only through Him that salvation has been made possible.

RoboBlue · Post by **RoboBlue** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:17

Lava89 wrote:Why would God be tempted by an inferior being when he is all knowing? It's not like Satan got the one up on God or pulled the wool over his eyes. God weighed Satan's argument and allowed him to afflict Job. Not to mention the fact that God knew Satan was going to accuse Job before he even did it.

If God is all-knowing, he had no reason to allow Job's loyalty to be tested because he already knew the outcome. This wasn't some run-of-the-mill test either, he killed Job's entire family.

Flaose wrote:Just as good parents don't trap us indoors for our whole lives to protect us from "the real world", God removes us from His physical presence, gives us free will, and lets us learn and grow from the experience. Some people use their free will poorly and make life miserable for themselves and others, others do the opposite. God wants us to return to Him and gives us His Son to make it possible, if we choose to follow Him.
So why do good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people?
Because God loves us.

That's acceptable for most bad things, but what about horrible tragedies where a few people caused an incredible amount of pain and damage to the entire world, sometimes even in God's name? Why did God let the Holocaust happen?

Pokota wrote: How is a Mormon not a Christian? Just... someone please explain to me why someone in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints wouldn't see Jesus Christ as their savior and redeemer?

From what I've read of the Book of Mormon, Mormonism is as radical a reinterpretation of God's will as Christianity is of Judaism. Also, the Mormon church has actually edited its holy book to suit popular culture, something I find very suspicious if it is indeed the one true religion.

KeenEmpire · Post by **KeenEmpire** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:47

Eros wrote: what the fucl, universe?

That's just the Fundamental Problem of basing your life on a religious text: they're never completely unambiguous. When people write so much, of course misinterpretations are going to happen: it's when the misinterpretations matter that the universe is screwed.