What the heck, PCKF?

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Dynamo
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What the heck, PCKF?

Post by Dynamo » Fri Apr 13, 2012 22:33

Alright so, I haven't posted here in a while as I pretty much lost interest due to all that has happened but I think it's time someone voiced their concerns about this.

What's up with the way things have been handled as of lately? Why does everything keep getting edited and people banned for even small jokes or offenses? Why so serious?

Seriously, chill out. I can honestly say I'm not the only one who is concerned about is, as cool people like Grimson or Matonen told me they pretty much stopped posting here because of the way things are being handled now. I'm not trying to start up a flamewar but instead voicing concerns from members (or former members) of this community.

Naturally one could answer, "How am I supposed to deal with it if everyone keeps bitching and insulting eachothers?". Well, the first thing I have to ask is why has a neo-nazi been let use these forums to begin with? Isn't it obvious that people like that only generate problems? I did hear he got banned, but I find it astounding he didn't get perma-banned when this first resurfaced (and we've known about this for a while).

Other than that, you want to know how? Stop being so by-the-book. I've been a moderator on another community and I've had to deal with cases far more difficult than these and I can honestly tell you than temporarily banning people and editing their posts isn't going to change things. Eradicate problems at their origin (ban neo-nazis forever) and stop being so nitpicky about every small detail like if someone says "nig", absolutely nobody cares. And even if the forum is supposed to be visited by kids and seeing nig doesn't make a very good first impression, it's not nearly as bad as the status the forum is in now. Ignore small details like those (or at least don't ban people over them and just talk them down nicely) and that should already be a start.

Hopefully this should maybe make things a bit better again, instead of this computer-like moderation. I might sound hostile, but I try to be objective and fair and I think I can tell where the line should not be crossed.

Best regards,

CKeen.
Paramultart wrote:
Scarlet wrote: Ckeen, that is just your opinion.
You can't tell CKeen that. He is always right.

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Post by Ceilick » Fri Apr 13, 2012 23:01

no u

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Post by VikingBoyBilly » Fri Apr 13, 2012 23:39

Spoken like a real troll, ceilick. Maybe you ought to ban yourself :crazy

But seriously, this is so out of character. You launch into authoritative, serious business speeches over trivial garg, banning left and right, then when someone makes a thought out, serious post voicing their concern about the community and calling the administration on its bullgarg, your reply is "no u"? :confused

Srsly, what the fucl. You do know that there are two other admins on this board who have both been admins longer than you, right? Don't you know that?

Don't get me wrong, I'm actually supportive of your admin procedure giving out warnings and carrying out punishment when garg gets out of hand. I just think you should be taking this thread more seriously.
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Post by Ceilick » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:24

VBB, I'd like to introduce you to irony. Ckeen's argument boils down to to the idea that posts like "No U" should be okay. No need to be serious right?
VBB wrote:You launch into authoritative, serious business speeches over trivial garg, banning left and right, then when someone makes a thought out, serious post voicing their concern about the community and calling the administration on its bullgarg, your reply is "no u"?
Trivial garg? Show me the money.

Banning left and right? Show me the money.

I've repeatedly stated that anyone with issues with forum moderation should contact myself, Tulip, or Flaose. Paramultart is the only user who has done this and we've worked things out on a number of occasions and it's one of the reasons he hasn't been perma banned. Sadly other users prefer to passively bitch on the forums about it or start up drama over it.
VBB wrote:You do know that there are two other admins on this board who have both been admins longer than you, right? Don't you know that?
Indeed, and we're all friends, and I've made it clear to both of them that I will always defer to their judgment.
Ckeen wrote:Why does everything keep getting edited and people banned for even small jokes or offenses?
I haven't been editing anyone's posts. I give warnings, and when they're ignored, I ban. I can't speak for Tulip or Flaose.

Bans for small jokes and offenses? Show me the money.
Ckeen wrote:cool people like Grimson or Matonen told me they pretty much stopped posting here because of the way things are being handled now.
That's their choice. They're always welcome to contribute to our community in positive ways.

Truth, I feel pretty fine with the current state of our community, excluding the recent Scarlet/Paramultart debacle which was completely unnecessary and a disappointment. And I don't really care what non-contributers like Ckeen think; I'm only replying now out of respect for you, VBB.

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Post by PandoricaShark » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:20

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Post by Keening_Product » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:30

Ceilick wrote:Paramultart is the only user who has done this
Actually, I have too.

I'm almost scared to comment on this thread at risk of contravening one of the rules. I'm going to assume it's okay to do so seeing as a mod has commented, but why should I have to use that as a gauge of how I participate?

Our mods are good mods, but I have to agree with some of what CKeen said.

I joined this forum under another username back in 2010 (no spoilers please) and very quickly got off on the wrong foot by getting into flamewars. Back then the only punishment was losing the respect of the community, but trust me that hurts given how nice most of the people here are. It was enough to make me leave for a short while feeling very, very silly.

I once posted a PCKF PM someone else sent me (an action suddenly seems relevant again) and was tut-tutted for making that public. So the rules were not light, but they were unwritten and seemed founded on a system of respect. Respect for forum elders and respect for the community.

The forum was largely self-moderating; the only users I recall being banned were spambots. I know the forum has grown since then, but not to the size where we need to start adapting the mentality of the forum giants.

But if you think I'm just being backwards, I have one request I believe is reasonable: Until something is done to inform users why they're being banned once they're completely locked out of even seeing the forums, I think at least a PM should be used. Even in extreme or warned cases that would usually result in an insta-ban.
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Post by VikingBoyBilly » Sat Apr 14, 2012 13:42

Keening_Product wrote:Until something is done to inform users why they're being banned once they're completely locked out of even seeing the forums, I think at least a PM should be used.
I've been banned once and It was impossible for me to see Tulip's PM informing me why I was banned and how long it would last until I was unbanned.
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Post by Keening_Product » Sat Apr 14, 2012 13:49

Yeah, I mean PM, then confirm receipt, then ban. And continuing posting counts as confirmation :P

Edit:
Ceilick wrote:Bans for small jokes and offenses? Show me the money.
Assuming Paramultart was Pelswick_Fan (how did you determine that again?) and then initially extending his ban by a week?

I've just been spending some time thinking about why I re-registered here; it's not fun anymore, very little serious stuff actually goes on that needs protecting and when something happens it gets mentioned on IRC, which is much more like what the PCKF used to be.
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Post by Ceilick » Sat Apr 14, 2012 16:54

KeeningProduct wrote:Actually, I have too.
Orite, sorry for forgetting you there :o
KeeningProduct wrote:I know the forum has grown since then, but not to the size where we need to start adapting the mentality of the forum giants.
The forum has not grown, it has stagnated and many of our older, valued members, who actually contributed to the community, left because of the crap that went on.
VBB wrote:I've been banned once and It was impossible for me to see Tulip's PM informing me why I was banned and how long it would last until I was unbanned.
I agree this is a problem, I don't have a solution in mind though.
KeeningProduct wrote:Assuming Paramultart was Pelswick_Fan (how did you determine that again?) and then initially extending his ban by a week?
1. Para has used multiple accounts on the forum before.
2. Para has threatened to use proxy accounts to circumvent banning multiple times
3. The multiple IP addresses for Pelswick_Fan clearly marks it as a user using a proxy.
4. The "wheelchair steve" mod content and art style clearly points to Paramultart

Nothing solid, but it was enough in my opinion.

Additionally, if you're referring to this as a 'small joke or offense'; circumventing forum discipline is not okay.

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Post by Grimson » Sat Apr 14, 2012 17:48

And I don't really care what non-contributers like Ckeen think
Non-contributers? Just because I, CKeen, Matonen or whoever doesn't have the taste, free time, patience or whatever garg required to create Keen-related material, I'm very certain our voice can and does make a difference. I've seen and met people who are productive and talented, but the said talent blows their ego out of proportions, making them a bunch of devious dickheads who glorify themselves over others and actually hurt the productivity of others. The moment moderators, even admins, start judging people by their productivity over more meaningful values such as friendliness and good behaviour, you know the place has gone rotten. It's a forum, not a factory.

Speaking for myself, I do like making pixel art, but as I'm already occupied with another mod project for another game, value my studies and relationship, I have simply not found the time, and no longer interest, to create anything Keen related what-so-ever. CKeen is correct, the way PCKF has degraded since I joined is one of the reasons for my loss of interest. While I did not leave with selfish pride so to let the door hit me on my way out, I cannot say I miss this place either - on one hand, most serious and meaningful discussion goes to waste while on the other, intertopic humour is no longer tolerated. As Ceilick truthfully mentioned, PCKF has not significantly grown, yet the athmosphere is completely different.

I'll keep lurking around to see what new mods and other goods the contributers come up with so that I may enjoy them like the Keen fan I am.
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Post by Benvolio » Sat Apr 14, 2012 18:32

yet the athmosphere is completely different
I partially agree, and think that this process is a product of the passing of time and the turnover of personnel here.

I don't think a poll of age-groups of members has ever been conducted; I'd say in, for example, 2002, the result of such a poll would have been radically different to 2012; If this hunch is correct it would reflect the fact that the enthusiastic keeners of past years have, like myself, grown up and perhaps expanded our interests from our chosen and beloved Keen niche. I would also say the number of early teens joining has dropped - nowadays 12-15 year olds will look back to PS-One if not PS2 and XBOX for the extreme gaming nostalgia that a lot of PCKF's older members found in keen.

There are a number of formerly central members of this forum and its predecessors that either don't post anymore (eg Xky, Xtraverse or LL) or seldom (eg KR). I have nothing against the newer members to whom the torch of daily posting has passed - and we see some tremendous modding and other projects from them, as well as some stimulating discussions of Keen games - but one cannot help notice that an ever-greater flow of posts emerges from this Miscellaneous section (the bottom 3 sub-forums), in proportion to the Keen-related topics. Meanwhile, there is a slight but still meaningful trickle of 'specialists' chatting away on K:M. Perhaps a lot of the tension we are seeing arises from people's insecurity with this change in focus.
left because of the crap that went on
The members I mentioned above are much more likely to have 'left' because their fanatic fixation on Keen subsided as they transitioned from kid/preteen to post-university, rather than because of 'crap'.

I think that a lot of people need to calm down, and this is across all divides of moderator-vs-nonmoderator, old-vs-new etc, and remember why you're on PCKF and not any of the possibly millions of other existent forums online.
I don't have a solution in mind though
There is a balance to be struck between immaturity and strict discipline. There's no easy solution, other than perhaps looking back in time and seeing how people have over the years been capable of getting on on this site. I've been visiting PCKF for about a decade now and it doesn't please me to see pettiness.

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Post by Ceilick » Sat Apr 14, 2012 19:57

Grimson wrote:Non-contributers? Just because I, CKeen, Matonen or whoever doesn't have the taste, free time, patience or whatever garg required to create Keen-related material, I'm very certain our voice can and does make a difference.
You've defined 'contributor' in the most narrow sense to construe me as an elitist. You introduced the word productivity, not me. Of course individuals who post useful comments are contributors. Key word is 'useful' and we've been pretty liberal with that in my opinion.
Benvolio wrote:The members I mentioned above are much more likely to have 'left' because their fanatic fixation on Keen subsided as they transitioned from kid/preteen to post-university, rather than because of 'crap'.
Not the members I was referring to. I have had several members tell me explicitly this is why they no longer post on the forum.

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Post by Flaose » Sat Apr 14, 2012 20:59

Ceilick wrote:I haven't been editing anyone's posts. I give warnings, and when they're ignored, I ban. I can't speak for Tulip or Flaose.
The only time in recent memory that I recall editing someone's post was ALMN's final post before the ban. I do, however, update the word censor whenever I notice someone has found a creative way around it, this would in some cases appear to be editing of the post, which brings me to the next point:
CKeen wrote:and stop being so nitpicky about every small detail like if someone says "nig", absolutely nobody cares.
I have to completely disagree with you there. "Nig" (and especially the word that it's derived from) is the most offensive word in American English. You can say basically anything you want in public these days without getting a second glance, but saying that word will get you dagger-glares. It's not about what kids may think, it's about respect (as Keening_Product mentioned). Bad language has no place on the PCKF.

The only person that I myself have permabanned since we moved to the "new" forum is ALMN, and it was after multiple flagrantly racist posts. I probably would have been far more lenient but his posts were of very little value, as you can see for yourself.

It's unfortunate when people decide to leave the community, but I hope that we can make it so that we ourselves aren't the reason.
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Post by VikingBoyBilly » Sat Apr 14, 2012 21:27

Ceilick wrote:
Grimson wrote:Non-contributers? Just because I, CKeen, Matonen or whoever doesn't have the taste, free time, patience or whatever garg required to create Keen-related material, I'm very certain our voice can and does make a difference.
You've defined 'contributor' in the most narrow sense to construe me as an elitist. You introduced the word productivity, not me. Of course individuals who post useful comments are contributors. Key word is 'useful' and we've been pretty liberal with that in my opinion.
This is an obvious save. You have made statements that you made the decision to not ban Paramultart for his behavior multiple times because he is a good modder. I suppose if he didn't make keen mods, he would have been permabanned long before now. For a while I've noticed this mentality of modders being elevated above the rules in the eyes of the admins and I don't really like it.

Even if that "no u" was just for lighthearted irony, it wasn't obvious (to me at least) and made you come as hypocritical and dismissive. In fact you even said that you only bothered to make an elaborate response out of respect for me, confirming that you deemed CKeen wasn't worth being treated with dignity.

I would like to point out that Paramultart had, indeed, had his ban extended for 1 day by Ceilick's choice based on the assumption that he created an alt account named Pelswick_Fan and posted with it to bypass his ban.

I have a confession to make. A couple days ago Tulip caught me red handed with my IP on Pelswick_Fan. Yes, it was me. Paramultart DID make the art that was shown in the screenshot, but it was my idea to create a new user that just happened to be making a mod with a disabled protagonist who was unaware of the drama that went on about Scarlet's disapproval of disabled main characters. It was just a joke for some laughs, but ultimately the sockpuppet was my own and Paramultart was the one punished for it just out of suspicion and no concrete evidence.

Tulip banned my IP for a while. We worked things out in the IRC (which boils down to me groveling to be unbanned and promising I'll never sock again) and he has given me the priveledge to continue posting on the forums.

Paramultart has been talking to me about what's been happening, and he takes issue with these points:
ceilick wrote:1. Para has used multiple accounts on the forum before.
2. Para has threatened to use proxy accounts to circumvent banning multiple times
I can't confirm if the following information is true, but Paramultart has told me that he had discussions with Ceilick where he told him that he has only used one alt account before, John Murdock, which only made 2 posts to share unpopular political opinions he didn't want affiliated with his Paramultart account, and confessed to Ceilick about John Murdock soon after he used it. "Used multiple accounts on the forum before" may be accurate since having that and the Paramultart account counts as multiple accounts, but he's irritated with the implication that he has sockpuppeted more than once.

On the second point, Paramultart claims that he told Ceilick he could use multiple proxy accounts if he wanted to if he was permabanned, but would not resort to it. I think it's out of personal integrity or a respect for the boards.
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Post by thehackercat » Sat Apr 14, 2012 23:17

I don't think I've ever done anything to attract moderator attention in a disciplinary sense, so I can't really empathize. However, I will point out that repeated warnings often do nothing to stop inflammatory posters, so bans are used for actions which seem trivial to most users. So far, I haven't seen a ban I didn't agree with; some have been harsh in my opinion, but they were given for a reason.

As for the definition of "contributing" users: I don't know what Ceilick meant by that, but I subscribe to the definition he posted here. Any user that makes constructive comments on a mod page, participates in discussions in the actual Keen topics, does modding or fanart or music, or just generally hangs around and chats with everyone is a "contributing" user. Case in point: Jerry/Jerty. I don't know whether he's active anymore, but his presence in the community was almost exclusively IRC-based, and yet he contributed hours of conversation, not to mention a few graphics, mods, and whatnot.

TL;DR
Sometimes people need to get banned. Sometimes harsh bans are the answer. There are few users who are actually "non-contributors".

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