What the heck, PCKF?

[Benvolio]

Ahh Rescue Rover looks really lovely (on youtube). So is Elecdude33's post. If they don't melt everyone's heart and soothe the belligerence I don't know what will. I second this being Keenish initiative, with its inherent inclusiveness.

[StupidBunny]

A guide to visiting PCKF:
Step 1. Open browser tab
Step 2. Go to pckf.com
Step 3. Click "Mark all forums read"
Step 4. Close tab

Is this why you never commented on my Keen Day mod? >:

[Dynamo]

Well well well since it has been specifically requested to point out the problems I guess I'll give it a shot. This time around please read the post carefully and do not take it seriously MEANING that I don't want to offend anyone and I merely just want to point out what the problem is so PLEASE do not start a flamewar over this post.

For one thing, he hasn't admitted a single fault on his part in this entire thread, making defensive responses to everything brought up against him.

I've asked you guys to clarify my faults so that I can admit or reject them, but instead you guys have changed the subject/s and made impulsive attacks on other things rather than focusing on your points.

You are still doing that right now. For example, you're still defending your initial post in the thread even though it wasn't funny, it wasn't useful, and most importantly to me it just looked like a way to completely avoid the question. If being a "non-contribuer" (which I assume means I don't spend my life modding a 20 years old game but correct me if I'm wrong) implies that my opinion means absolutely nothing in your eyes, then I think this is your first fault right there. Please stop being an elitist. Honest request.

This is ridiculous. I've not said that my feelings about the forum are all that matter; you're injecting meaning and motivations, you're creating 'my ego'. I have only stated my feelings about the status of the forum.

And you ignored mine (as well as that of several other people since I wasn't speaking just for myself), while implying that you only cared about what the other mods think. So, yeah, this is why VBB brought up the ego part, and I can't say I can blame him.

So now my moral standing is in question?

Well ARE you trying to make yourself look morally correct? Because I don't see why you should want to do that. Instead, you shouldn't have avoided questions at the beginning with unfunny remarks while trying to justify that later.

That's for the moderators to decide.

Really? Well, all I can say is you're lucky the PCKF is a small community or garg would've blown up. Having been a moderator on a much bigger community for longer than you, and having trolled in the past as well (not in this thread), I can safely say that what vbb said about trolling is absolutely true and treating bans as punishments is an awful way of handling things, no offense. Actually, trolling is a pretty good way to deal with troublemakers, but definitely NOT a good way to deal with good threads like this one.

We could organize and take action to take down mods we don't like. Or we'll move out and start another forum to leave you guys alone here, content with having the pckf your way.

You can't do the first.

Hobbes wants his line back. Also, I dunno about you, but in the community I moderate I always let the community speak for my actions so that I can improve, while your comment implies your reign over PCKF is supreme regardless if you're a good moderator or not.

I've already explained this.

"hey he said not to be serious so let me post a totally unserious post to a serious question while completely avoiding the question in the process". As I already explained.

No. This implies the only people worth trolling are people with power, and you know as well as I do that trolls will troll whoever takes the bait. That's any member, rules or no.

The only people worth trolling are the ones who react negatively to it, regardless if they're moderators or not. I don't think VBB's message is implying anything at all, maybe you read into things way too deeply or something, dunno.



But yeah hopefully that clears things up. The TL;DR version is that you should stop seeing your judgement as the "holy grail" of judgements because most of your posts in this forum hint that imo. As for bringing up stuff in private I like when the community expresses their opinion and in fact this ended up being a fairly decent thread despite a rough start (which was not my fault) and I'd like if it would continue to head this way, without having to fall into unnecessary flamewars.

I might edit this post if I see I screwed up somewhere or I want to add something.

[VikingBoyBilly]

Now for another serious business, radical response to Ceilick.

I agree with Tulip and glad he made a number of statements I wanted to but knew you guys would jump on if it was me. As both Flaose and Tulip have mentioned, a review of the rules by the forum is fine with me.

Maybe it's time to make a new rules thread for an open discussion on it.

For one thing, he hasn't admitted a single fault on his part in this entire thread, making defensive responses to everything brought up against him.

I've asked you guys to clarify my faults so that I can admit or reject them, but instead you guys have changed the subject/s and made impulsive attacks on other things rather than focusing on your points.

I guess it's not clear to you, but Ckeen and Paramultart agree that the points I made in my post regarding you in this thread alone were very focused. I apologize that it's blunt, I can imagine reading such things about yourself can strike your nerves.

One of those points was your first post in this thread. I already said it's pressing against rule 2. There's no clear borderline for breaking rule 2, as it's hazy to define what kind of posts constitute as being useless. The first time I saw it, there was almost no worth to it, except it made the point that you disagree with CKeen.

Then there's the whole "non-contributor" schtick. You explained a contributor is someone whose presence in the community has some worth, whether or not they mod, their posts provide to the community in some way. It could be criticism, showing new viewpoints to a matter, etc. I believe everyone of the same member status deserves to be treated with the same amount of dignity, regardless of whether or not they 'contribute.' That "no u" remark didn't 'contribute' anything by any sense of the word, except being an arse.

When criticism against the way things are run here was brought up, his response was that he was satisfied with the way the forum is right now, meaning it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks as long as he's happy.

This is ridiculous. I've not said that my feelings about the forum are all that matter; you're injecting meaning and motivations, you're creating 'my ego'. I have only stated my feelings about the status of the forum.

Okay, I'll give you this one.
But I will say that this 'ego' we see is in the subtext of your posts and how you operate. Sometimes what's left unsaid can leave unintentional impressions. You said you felt the forum is good the way it is now, but at the time you didn't say you were open to whether or not others agree with this, and you being a mod carries a lot of weight when most of us aren't.

I was willing to be objectivist and accept that he wasn't doing it aware of the elitist connotations for a second, but after seeing those screens keening_product posted, I'm opted to suspect he might be outright lying about some details to present himself as morally correct.

So now my moral standing is in question? I love you guys. Especially considering no one asked me if it was alright if private conversations I was involved in were made public. However, I'm not sure what, if anything, you guys are having an issue with in those logs.

The issue is that you said Paramultart has said he will act upon threats he has made, but what's shown in these conversations is that he openly states that, even though he can, he won't take things that far.

If there's any specific instances he made threats with no indication of backing down on them that we don't know about, you can reveal it to us, unless you'd rather keep it obfuscated for respect of privacy.

Banning isn't supposed to be a punishment.

That's for the moderators to decide.

Let's put that up for debate when we make a new rules thread.

We could organize and take action to take down mods we don't like. Or we'll move out and start another forum to leave you guys alone here, content with having the pckf your way.

You can't do the first.

Is that a dare? Someone (who shall remain unnamed at the moment) is already writing a petition to boot you out of power.

You're welcome to try the latter.

I already have some ideas. We'll call it the NPCKF (New Public Commander Keen Forum). Lol, lazy, I know, and bound to get dated. In hindsight I forgot there's already a keen modding forum which is separate, it's not a bad alternative.

What's the second post on this thread? "No u," by Ceilick. Shouldn't he get a warning for breaking a rule? That post was irrelevant garbage that didn't contribute anything, and he didn't even go back to delete it or edit it.

I've already explained this.

You explained why you said it and what it meant. You didn't explain how it's legal (it's not).

Speaking as someone who has trolled in the past, the more strict a board is, the more fun it is to find ways to troll. When a board doesn't have rules, it takes the fun out of trolling because you won't get in trouble for doing it, and it gets boring. It's kind of like robbing a bank versus stealing candy from a baby. It's too easy, so trolls don't want to troll there. Ironically, being less uptight could actually improve behavior here.

No. This implies the only people worth trolling are people with power, and you know as well as I do that trolls will troll whoever takes the bait. That's any member, rules or no.

Those are obvious trolls. Trolls come in different levels. The master trolls are more subtle. They have specific targets in mind. They work underground. They keep a low profile. They have powerful connections. Their goals are ambitious. But like anybody else, they do it for teh lullz. To be honest, it was kind of dumb of me to speculate on troll psychology when it doesn't apply all that much here. The troll situation here won't change much no matter what changes are made, because this isn't a hugely popular forum. A handful of regulars are the most active users and we don't get new members too often (who actually make posts), so we don't have to worry about spiking influxes of n00bs that could be potential trolls to keep under control.

[The Keen Commander]

Someone (who shall remain unnamed at the moment) is already writing a petition to boot you out of power.

To what point and purpose? You'll get popular support from some, sure. What of it? Just because a lot of people agree with you doesn't mean it'll actually get Ceilick removed as a moderator.

To be fair, Ceilick's original post, while I understand the attempt at irony, was unnecessary. However, to launch an all-out attack against his decisions as a moderator and make that one arguably poor decision a focal point is not particularly credible.

In Ceilick's position with the crap going down between Scarlet and Paramultart, I'd have given them both a temporary ban as well. It was stupid and unnecessary. The real question, VBB and CKeen, is what would you do in that position that you consider better?

Please stop being an elitist.

I'm sorry, but calling someone an elitist is attempting to start a flame war, something you insisted that others should NOT be doing. How is that any different from the "hypocrisy" you're accusing Ceilick of in his "no u" post?

Also, fwiw, calling you a "non-contributer" probably has more to do with the fact that you are known for starting flame wars and rarely have any positive contributions to make to any thread. You will note I use the word "rarely", not "never". That's intentional. I have definitely seen you contribute positively in the past. Not anytime recently though, arguably this thread aside. Once it turned into a personal attack though (which it has), it has ceased to be at all worthwhile.

[StupidBunny]

Okay, honestly, I'm not sure what y'all's problem is with ceilick in particular. I mean yeah, posting "no u" was kind of dumb and disrespectful, but all I see is you guys arguing in circles to try and make him look more like a fascist than he actually is. Why is it so directed? What about the other mods? And also why are we still calling Ceilick an "elitist" when he's already addresses that point?

[Dynamo]

All right, I'll remove that part. My bad. That's one of the screwups I was talking about, heh.

I don't think you guys realize that the problem isn't the first post by Ceilick in particular but the all the points made in this thread so far. As for the other mods, Tulip's points for one were addressed by VBB.

Also, just for further clarification, I never meant to say we should overthrow ceilick or anything of the sort, and please do not open another forum because I already saw the results of splitting up a community in two once and I assure you nothing good comes out of it. I recognize I may not have the best post history around (now that I looked back some of my old posts are particularly retarded) but as I said again I have no intention of turning this into a tournament of personal attacks. Sometimes, just trying to acknowledge that the other side may have a point goes a long way.

[Benvolio]

there's already a keen modding forum which is separate, it's not a bad alternative

Please do not bring any unpleasantness to K:M. It is a home for some genuine Keen fans who would not enjoy anyone introducing their disagreements to their platform of creativity. I know that your post was rhetorical but, particularly as a respected modder you should not show disdain for that site.

[entropicdecay]

there's already a keen modding forum which is separate, it's not a bad alternative

Please do not bring any unpleasantness to K:M. It is a home for some genuine Keen fans who would not enjoy anyone introducing their disagreements to their platform of creativity. I know that your post was rhetorical but, particularly as a respected modder you should not show disdain for that site.

Okay, I may feel a protectiveness towards the Modding forum too but please don't go throwing "genuine fans" around because that term is just not mature or constructive at all.

[Ceilick]

For example, you're still defending your initial post in the thread even though it wasn't funny, it wasn't useful, and most importantly to me it just looked like a way to completely avoid the question.

Yes I am defending that, I don't deny that. I still don't consider it a fault or mistake.

If being a "non-contribuer" (which I assume means I don't spend my life modding a 20 years old game but correct me if I'm wrong) implies that my opinion means absolutely nothing in your eyes, then I think this is your first fault right there. Please stop being an elitist. Honest request.

I've already explained this.

And you ignored mine (as well as that of several other people since I wasn't speaking just for myself), while implying that you only cared about what the other mods think.

I don't see how this can be interpolated is being implied. And your initial post is the only one I've thrown to the wind.

Well ARE you trying to make yourself look morally correct? Because I don't see why you should want to do that.

Deflection.

Really? Well, all I can say is you're lucky the PCKF is a small community or garg would've blown up. Having been a moderator on a much bigger community for longer than you, and having trolled in the past as well (not in this thread), I can safely say that what vbb said about trolling is absolutely true and treating bans as punishments is an awful way of handling things, no offense. Actually, trolling is a pretty good way to deal with troublemakers, but definitely NOT a good way to deal with good threads like this one.

Is it so strange that unique communities should be moderated in unique ways? Also throwing your experience as a mod in a different community is tiring.

but in the community I moderate I always let the community speak for my actions so that I can improve, while your comment implies your reign over PCKF is supreme regardless if you're a good moderator or not.

You can actually ask Parmultart about this. I think he'll disagree with you.

you should stop seeing your judgement as the "holy grail" of judgements because most of your posts in this forum hint that imo.

Orly? Comments like, "I've made it clear to both of them (Tulip and Flaose) that I will always defer to their judgment."?

One of those points was your first post in this thread. I already said it's pressing against rule 2. There's no clear borderline for breaking rule 2, as it's hazy to define what kind of posts constitute as being useless. The first time I saw it, there was almost no worth to it, except it made the point that you disagree with CKeen.

As I've mentioned, I've explained my stance in at least two posts. I know we disagree on this one.

I believe everyone of the same member status deserves to be treated with the same amount of dignity, regardless of whether or not they 'contribute.'

Fair enough. However, I disagree that if someone randomly shows up, who is essentially out of touch with the community, as I feel many statements in Ckeen's first post are (I highlighted some earlier, i'm willing to do more), and makes a number of statements on a community issue, that is pretty damn questionable. No one likes it when someone jumps into a political or social issue discussion in this way, I don't see this as much different.

That's two points, and I appreciate your clarification on them, VBB. If there are more please do so as you've done here.

You said you felt the forum is good the way it is now, but at the time you didn't say you were open to whether or not others agree with this, and you being a mod carries a lot of weight when most of us aren't.

This is true, and that's a fault I'll admit; I'm not always as comprehensive as I'd like to be.

but what's shown in these conversations is that he openly states that, even though he can, he won't take things that far.

I believe I said this previously, but perhaps not: his most recent 'threat' was hardly malicious, but given the context of previous interactions in which similar 'threats' were made in a more heavy handed tone (though I will not claim these were outright malicious either), I feel justified in my reaction here.

Let's put that up for debate when we make a new rules thread.

This is fair, however, as Tulip mentioned, we are not a democracy. Of course, what the 'majority' of the community feels does weigh heavy and if we moderators feel necessary to disagree, I hope we can do so peaceably.

Is that a dare? Someone (who shall remain unnamed at the moment) is already writing a petition to boot you out of power.

No, it isn't. Also I'm aware of this and who is responsible. Gasp, I haven't banned him!?

You explained why you said it and what it meant. You didn't explain how it's legal (it's not).

I believe I did so in response to Keening Product.

In Ceilick's position with the crap going down between Scarlet and Paramultart, I'd have given them both a temporary ban as well. It was stupid and unnecessary.

Everyone should know that I specifically requested Tulip to handle the Scarlet/Paramultart issue; I didn't want to be involved in it.

[Benvolio]

I apologise, elecdude33. I did not mean to (and didn't) speak about the genuineness or otherwise of anyone else besides those who are posting regularly on K:M. But yes that term was not necessary.

[entropicdecay]

I apologise, elecdude33. I did not mean to (and didn't) speak about the genuineness or otherwise of anyone else besides those who are posting regularly on K:M. But yes that term was not necessary.

Thanks for apologising. As someone who's seen it in a lot of fan communities and never seen it lead to anything positive, anything along the lines of "true fan" tends to irritate me.

[Keening_Product]

Whoever is petitioning to overthrow Ceilick needs to realise that Ceilick is fine; I believe the purpose of this thread was to look at how the forum is moderated, not to attack Ceilick as a moderator.

I won't sign that petition, and I'd be surprised if any more than maybe three people do. Celick is a good mod, except the rules by which he and the other mods moderate need some changes.

This is not an attack: Ceilick, the reason you got such a negative reaction to "no u" was because it was an incredibly inflammatory to reply with. It's like flipping the bird at the police; it's really egging on a response. In any other circumstance it would've been funny.

[Flaose]

The members who are not empowered greatly outnumber the mods. We could organize and take action to take down mods we don't like.

As has been stated, you can not. I don't want to sound like a dick, but as has been stated before, this is an oligarchy, not a democracy. Of course, if an admin is abusing their power action should (and will) be taken to remove it, but if some members simply don't like that an admin follows the posted guidelines, it's their own problem. Though as I mentioned before, I'm not opposed to the idea of a rules discussion.

A lot of people have mentioned that ban's shouldn't be used as punishment. The fact is, none of us wants to have to be constantly deleting posts and locking threads because people can't behave themselves, it's more effective to stop the problem at its source. Personally, I think a temporary ban is doing the infractor a favour. It's a chance to cool down and helps avoid them doing something stupid that would warrant a more permanent solution. I understand that people disagree with this, and it's something we can talk about when we discuss the rules, but banishment has always been part of moderation in the PCKF (though there were a few years where everybody behaved themselves and bans weren't really necessary).

And to directly address the subtext of this entire thread, Scarlet broke the rules and intentionally egged Paramultart on, Para took the bait and started attacking back. They both knew the consequences for doing so and had been warned many times before. As has recently been revealed, it wasn't Ceilick that gave them temporary bans, but rather Tulip. It's unfortunate that we didn't notice the flamebait earlier or a lot of this trouble could have been avoided.

I've always liked the disclaimer on the 3D Realms message board: "Remember that you are a guest, act like one."

[KeenEmpire]

And to directly address the subtext of this entire thread, Scarlet broke the rules and intentionally egged Paramultart on, Para took the bait and started attacking back. They both knew the consequences for doing so and had been warned many times before. As has recently been revealed, it wasn't Ceilick that gave them temporary bans, but rather Tulip. It's unfortunate that we didn't notice the flamebait earlier or a lot of this trouble could have been avoided.

If you think about it, the mod system has to be effective (read: ban/edit/delete-happy) before users start counting on them to resolve issues. If person A keeps provoking person B (perhaps in too subtle ways to ban for) and nothing is done about it, eventually person B will snap. Thus, being "warned many times" may actually have been the problem.

Note: this is not a sufficient condition for good behavior (maybe Pam was an ass and would've attacked back no matter what, for example), but it is a necessary condition.