What the heck, PCKF?

A general chat area, here you can post anything that doesn't belong in another forum.
Keening_Product
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Post by Keening_Product »

Oh, it's good to see Paramultart's name being cleared here; thanks for the explanation vbb!
VikingBoyBilly wrote:On the second point, Paramultart claims that he told Ceilick he could use multiple proxy accounts if he wanted to if he was permabanned, but would not resort to it. I think it's out of personal integrity or a respect for the boards.
This. He may have trolled and he may have got into messy arguments, but actually making an effort to wreck the place? You clearly don't know Paramultart.

And I largely agree with THC. Remember, we have a Misc section for a reason, and I think it's used quite well. We ARE a 'community' remember; we are the nation of Keen lovers. The founding fathers (ignoring that many of us were around at the time this place was created) of everything ever had interests outside of their field and a sense of humour. (Okay, maybe not every one but you get the point.)

As for non-constructive content infiltrating constructive commentary, I have something of an analogy: In Melbourne there are streets covered in graffiti. It is done well, very well. SO well in fact that this illegal action actually makes the city look good, perfectly represents the creative city that Melbourne is. You know what has happened to this graffiti? It has been heritage listed to protect it and the culture and feel of the city. There are still laws against graffiti, but when it is done tactfully its results are appreciated, if not by the law. Likewise, there is... or was... a slightly troll-ish and meme-running (not the stupid ones - ones made up by members) culture in this forum that, although not constructive, reflected the creativity and FUN nature of this forum. It IS a game remember, so why not have fun? This isn't some train-spotting forum.
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Grimson
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Post by Grimson »

Ceilick wrote:
Grimson wrote:Non-contributers? Just because I, CKeen, Matonen or whoever doesn't have the taste, free time, patience or whatever garg required to create Keen-related material, I'm very certain our voice can and does make a difference.
You've defined 'contributor' in the most narrow sense to construe me as an elitist. You introduced the word productivity, not me. Of course individuals who post useful comments are contributors. Key word is 'useful' and we've been pretty liberal with that in my opinion.
Sorry, but like VBB explained, this is not the tone/mentality emanated from your previous posts. I realize the broad meaning of the word, and if this is really the case, then we're off the hook.
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Post by Ceilick »

VBB wrote:You have made statements that you made the decision to not ban Paramultart for his behavior multiple times because he is a good modder. I suppose if he didn't make keen mods, he would have been perma-banned long before now. For a while I've noticed this mentality of modders being elevated above the rules in the eyes of the admins and I don't really like it.
These 'statements' were personal interactions with paramultart and his status as a talented Keen modder is not the sole reason for the lack of perma-ban. Paramultart has and does contribute useful posts and I consider him, for the most part, a valuable member of the community.

This idea of 'modder's privilege' is silly.
VBB wrote: and made you come as hypocritical and dismissive.
You, and whoever else, is entitled to feel how they will about my reaction.
VBB wrote: you deemed CKeen wasn't worth being treated with dignity.

I treated Ckeen with the same level of 'dignity' he essentially asked for, as I did with you.
VBB wrote: It was just a joke for some laughs, but ultimately the sockpuppet was my own and Paramultart was the one punished for it just out of suspicion and no concrete evidence.

There's a lesson in this and that is that your actions can implicate and hurt your friends. Paramultart was willing to take the hit for you and wouldn't affirm who Pelswick_fan was, which I told him would get him off the hook. Perhaps you should think next time you do something that will obviously affect people you care about.
VBB wrote:but he's irritated with the implication that he has sockpuppeted more than once.
...He told me about at least one extra account aside from John Murdock. I don't remember the name and took this in stride at the time, but, he has tried to utilize his John Murdock account in the past just to be a dick and post around his ban--the first time I temp banned him, I believe.
VBB wrote:Paramultart claims that he told Ceilick he could use multiple proxy accounts if he wanted to if he was permabanned, but would not resort to it.
I'm only responding to this because I assume it's with Para's permission that his and my interactions are being made public here, but this was only in his latest conversation with me. He has at least twice in the past threatened ('threatened' in the more explicit sense than this latest case) using proxies.
Keening Product wrote:actually making an effort to wreck the place?
I've never claimed this and wouldn't. He has, however, taken actions in certain threads which could be considered 'wrecking'.

Keening Product wrote:but when it is done tactfully its results are appreciated
I agree completely. I disagree with the extent at which some think their posts are tactful, appreciated, or humorous.
Gridlock wrote:Sorry, but like VBB explained, this is not the tone/mentality emanated from your previous posts. I realize the broad meaning of the word, and if this is really the case, then we're off the hook.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'off the hook', but I'm glad we've sorted that out.

And the truth is, I don't want to ban anyone. I assume the same of Tulip and Flaose. Temporary bans are for exactly that reason. If I and the other mods were out to get you guys or didn't think you were valuable to our community, we'd be perma-banning.
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Post by Keening_Product »

Ceilick wrote:
VBB wrote: and made you come as hypocritical and dismissive.
You, and whoever else, is entitled to feel how they will about my reaction.
Yes, but we can't ban people if we think it's getting annoying. So are we allowed to do the same then? You did it to make a point, so can I go and do the exact same thing on some random thread to make the point in return? Or will I get a formal warning for that? People get warned for posting only GIFs or memes, which are more constructive than your comment!
Ceilick wrote:Paramultart was willing to take the hit for you and wouldn't affirm who Pelswick_fan was
You have the power to demand an answer now? I thought Americans lived on the idea of innocent until proven guilty, and silence does not prove guilt. And this raises another issue: If someone were to randomly accuse another user of using a puppet account, does that get them off the hook? Because if Para DID point the finger, until VBB posted under his own IP you had no way of knowing that Para was telling the truth.
Ceilick wrote:I've never claimed this and wouldn't. He has, however, taken actions in certain threads which could be considered 'wrecking'.
You just made a point and contradicted it in the same paragraph.
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Ceilick
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Post by Ceilick »

Being argumentative for the sake of it doesn't get anything anywhere. Nothing in your previous post is constructive, but merely a grasping attempt to nitpick and discredit me. I'm not taking offense or anything, but this is exactly the kind of impulsive response posting the forum doesn't need.
Keening Product wrote:Yes, but we can't ban people if we think it's getting annoying. So are we allowed to do the same then? You did it to make a point, so can I go and do the exact same thing on some random thread to make the point in return? Or will I get a formal warning for that? People get warned for posting only GIFs or memes, which are more constructive than your comment!

Is this really so hard? This is not a random thread I'm making a point in, but one that was addressed specifically to myself and the other moderators. If someone addressed you specifically in a thread, or something that is extremely relevant to you, do you think the mods are going to tell you off for responding with a point?

Keening Product wrote:You have the power to demand an answer now? I thought Americans lived on the idea of innocent until proven guilty, and silence does not prove guilt. And this raises another issue: If someone were to randomly accuse another user of using a puppet account, does that get them off the hook? Because if Para DID point the finger, until VBB posted under his own IP you had no way of knowing that Para was telling the truth.
I don't understand where you're coming from with 'power to demand and an answer'. Also pulling “americans believe...” bears little relevance here. The PCKF is not the United States. And do you honestly think I'm so jump-the-gun that if someone accused someone of something I wouldn't investigate?

Keening Product wrote:You just made a point and contradicted it in the same paragraph.
Wrecking the forum and wrecking a thread are two different things. You implied the prior with 'the place', I stated the later. No contradiction.
Keening_Product
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Post by Keening_Product »

Ceilick wrote:Being argumentative for the sake of it doesn't get anything anywhere. Nothing in your previous post is constructive, but merely a grasping attempt to nitpick and discredit me. I'm not taking offense or anything, but this is exactly the kind of impulsive response posting the forum doesn't need.
It was constructive and highly relevant - re-read CKeen's post and then read mine.

Anyway, you ignored all my previous constructive comments.

I'm not trying to offend you, I just think the rules have got a little silly and moderation is inconsistent.
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Post by VikingBoyBilly »

I don't want it to seem like I'm out to attack Ceilick and the other mods, either. I hear a lot of complaining that the pckf is becoming like a dictatorship since he became an admin, but I don't believe Ceilick is honestly the authoritarian elitist they make him out to be. I'm sure Ceilick believes he's doing what's best for the community in the long run. I just think it's best to address these complaints openly because I'm sick of the whining/drama and I want us all to work out an understanding to make this as friendly and enjoyable an environment as it can be.
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Keening_Product
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Post by Keening_Product »

In light of the "show me the money" parts of this thread, I'm linking these on the behalf of Paramultart, who has approved the posting of these in his defense:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18319523/Ceilick_log_1.png

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18319523/Ceilick_log_2.png
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entropicdecay
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Post by entropicdecay »

Okay, right there I see the phrase "DDOS the whole forum" mentioned. On the one hand, that's being mentioned as an extreme example and clarified to be something that isn't going to happen. On the other, from the point of view of a mod/admin trying to keep trouble out of the community as best they can, bringing up the fact that you even thought about theoretically doing that reads more as "I know how and I'm thinking about it, if you push me far enough I might try to take your whole forum down with me, so you know you want to stop hassling me and just let me post what I want."

It seems to me that it's a fundamental difference in the general point of view of a mod from that of a regular poster. I also think the fact that people have been retreating to the IRC channel to talk more freely about members they know don't go their has raised the overall tension in the current state of the forum, but that's my bias from the fact that trying to pop into the IRC channel immediately alienates me, so that should be taken with a grain of salt.
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Post by Gridlock »

Gridlock wrote:
Sorry, but like VBB explained, this is not the tone/mentality emanated from your previous posts. I realize the broad meaning of the word, and if this is really the case, then we're off the hook.
I didn't say this, Grimson did.

It seems like this thread has just turned into pointless bickering at opposed to meaningful discussion. Instead of pointing the blame on Ceilick and beating the Pelswick-Fan stuff to death, can't we move on and come up with suggestions about how to improve things around here? I'm sure Ceilick would be happy to listen to suggestions that aren't trying to be argumentative and defiant.

In my opinion, banning isn't helping in the long run (for the most part). It seems to cause resentment among members and threads like these to pop up. Instead, maybe we should focus more on locking topics. If the moderators feel that a topic has gotten out of hand, they can lock it and specifically post why they locked it. I know this isn't anything new, but it does seem to be a good way of regulating things without creating too much ill-will. Only those members who contribute nothing valuable to the community and commit repeat offenses should be permanently banned. Temporary bans don't seem to fix anything.

Perhaps we need something big in the community to grab the attention of the old members and divert some of the attention away from this stuff. Unfortunately, many of our past attempts at bringing the community back together haven't gotten much of a response.
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entropicdecay
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Post by entropicdecay »

It's pretty common for temporary bans to just be seen as "well, I'm not permabanned".
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Post by Grimson »

Ceilick wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by 'off the hook', but I'm glad we've sorted that out.
I've seen some use it as a synonym for "cool" as in "we're cool". Could be a mistake on my part, though, as I'm not specialized in urban English phrases :old
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Post by Ceilick »

Sorry for attributing that quote to you, Gridlock; I knew it was Grimson but get your names mixed up when typing them out :o

@Grimson: Oh ok :) "Off the hook", in my experience, is excusatory instead of coming to terms.
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Post by Benvolio »

Gridlock makes a very good point. A lot of this unpleasantness would be better controlled by locking than by bans which seem to fuel peoples' aggression. Although if offences are genuinely serious enough bans are warranted.

A lot of the worst threads in this forum - eg Wheelchair Steve, and parts of the Pizza thread, have been let proliferate unchecked - in the past they would more likely have been locked; at least Tulip has done away with the Three Word Story, better late than never.
something big in the community
Making something big is indeed a solution, and requires time and motivation. Time is an individual's own problem; motivation is largely dependent on the prospect of an interested audience, and this is the job of day-to-day PCKF activity.
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Eros
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Post by Eros »

before i knew what the whole pelswick fan thing was about, i thought it was a creative metaphor for para's own plight on the PCKF.

he is an ordinary person (forumgoer) who is/was disabled (banned), and is trying to make sense of it (reason with the higher ups) and going around the world like a regular person (non-banned people).



guess that didn't pan out so well.
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