What the heck, PCKF?

A general chat area, here you can post anything that doesn't belong in another forum.
KeenEmpire
Intellectuality
Posts: 855
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 0:38

Post by KeenEmpire » Mon Apr 16, 2012 0:03

Someone's going to have to explain this to me :O
"In order to ensure our security, and continuing stability, the Kingdom has been reorganized into the First Vorticon Intellectuality!" Image

elecdude33
Mad Mushroom
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 15:00
Contact:

Post by elecdude33 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:31

Eros wrote:before i knew what the whole pelswick fan thing was about, i thought it was a creative metaphor for para's own plight on the PCKF.

he is an ordinary person (forumgoer) who is/was disabled (banned), and is trying to make sense of it (reason with the higher ups) and going around the world like a regular person (non-banned people).



guess that didn't pan out so well.
Using disability as a metaphor for being banned from a forum about a 22(ish)-year-old computer game would be a pretty heavy overreaction anyway.

Edit: I should note that I don't really have a clue what this stuff, or the neo-nazi thing is all about. Does anybody have a concise summary?

User avatar
Keening_Product
Kuliwho?
Posts: 2089
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:02
Location: Tied up in the Oracle Chamber's basement
Contact:

Post by Keening_Product » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:03

Gridlock wrote:Instead of pointing the blame on Ceilick and beating the Pelswick-Fan stuff to death, can't we move on and come up with suggestions about how to improve things around here? I'm sure Ceilick would be happy to listen to suggestions that aren't trying to be argumentative and defiant.
I tried doing that long before your post but my comments are being ignored.

Here's another idea though: How about a forum-based review of the rules. The present ones were made up by admins to make the life of admins easier and have been reinterpreted since and so on. Why not have the community write them and continually review them? That way if someone gets banned, it's for the clear reason that what they did is undesirable to a majority of the community.
Image
"Wise words. One day I may even understand what they mean." - Levellass

User avatar
thehackercat
Yorp Doctor
Posts: 660
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 0:05
Location: Mississippi, USA

Post by thehackercat » Mon Apr 16, 2012 23:19

"We the People of the Public Commander Keen Forum, in order to establish a less butthurt community..."

In all seriousness, I think community-reviewed rules are a good idea. Either we could vote to appoint a panel of non-moderators, who would then review the rules, or we could go the long route of having everyone vote. Of course, we could also draft a set of rules and then the mods and the rest of the community could reach a consensus on which ones stay and which ones leave.

User avatar
Flaose
Vorticon Elder
Posts: 567
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 20:30
Location: The Frozen Hell
Contact:

Post by Flaose » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:49

I personally find the rules both comprehensive and fair. What kinds of additions/changes are you guys thinking of?
Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs.
Eat at Joe's

User avatar
tulip
Flower Pot
Posts: 2520
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:50
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Contact:

Post by tulip » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:40

Interesting to see how Ceilick comes off as the dictator, while I think I have banned more people over the time, banned more IPs (I'm not even sure anyone else except me does this), and the only permaban I can remember was by Flaose.
Usually Ceilick is the guy issuing out a warning to all members of a discussion gone wrong until he bans them, people that are instantly banned are repeat-offenders, no innocent bystanders. Some nitpicky people migt say they haven't got a warning, simply because a warning in that same thread wasn't addressed personally to them, but I don't wanna rant about this.

Several other points have been brought up:
Locking is a better measure than banning: Well as I see it this is like prison and fines: if you only have to pay a fine you're not gonna care much, i.e. not learn a lesson, or even realize you did something wrong. If your action is grave enough for a ban, then you'll get a ban. You not liking it is exactly the point.
I stand behind the biggest part of the bans that have been issued. Not all but that's normal if you have several people moderating. Just trying to emphasize that I don't see someone as the black sheep of moderators as has been implied by some here.


Americans, Democracy, vote for rules:
These arguments make me laugh for the most time, as does "This is a free country!" when someone has stolen from the supermarket. Almost completely beside the point, plus the pckf, as Ceilick has pointed out multiple times, is neither a country nor a democracy. None of the moderators have been voted.
As for the rules, I'd also like to see which ones are seen as so ridiculous or oppressive that you feel intimidated by them. Suggestions about improving them can be made, but bare in mind that decision stays with the moderators, reason see previous paragraph.
At the point we (I) were introducing the rules I didn't want to do this but was forced since people were deliberately trying to make things unpleasant to prove they can. Later we had to revise them, and yes even make them more strict, because people (may have been partly the same ones I don't remember) have tried to show us loopholes. So essentially I'm against having to have rules, but I'm not against reviewing them.

Anyway, overall this whole thread seems like a relatively decent discussion so far, which is a surprise considering how it started. Only one I really don't understand is Keening_Product atm, except the rules suggestion.
Image You crack me up little buddy!

User avatar
VikingBoyBilly
Vorticon Elite
Posts: 4155
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:06
Location: The spaghetti island of the faces of dinosaur world for a vacation

Post by VikingBoyBilly » Tue Apr 17, 2012 15:15

tulip wrote:Interesting to see how Ceilick comes off as the dictator, while I think I have banned more people over the time, banned more IPs (I'm not even sure anyone else except me does this), and the only permaban I can remember was by Flaose.
Usually Ceilick is the guy issuing out a warning to all members of a discussion gone wrong until he bans them, people that are instantly banned are repeat-offenders, no innocent bystanders. Some nitpicky people migt say they haven't got a warning, simply because a warning in that same thread wasn't addressed personally to them, but I don't wanna rant about this.
The problem we have with Ceilick is his ego. For one thing, he hasn't admitted a single fault on his part in this entire thread, making defensive responses to everything brought up against him. When criticism against the way things are run here was brought up, his response was that he was satisfied with the way the forum is right now, meaning it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks as long as he's happy. He didn't respect a "non-contributor" enough to give him more than a snarky, evasive, one-liner non-response. I was willing to be objectivist and accept that he wasn't doing it aware of the elitist connotations for a second, but after seeing those screens keening_product posted, I'm opted to suspect he might be outright lying about some details to present himself as morally correct.
tulip wrote: Locking is a better measure than banning: Well as I see it this is like prison and fines: if you only have to pay a fine you're not gonna care much, i.e. not learn a lesson, or even realize you did something wrong. If your action is grave enough for a ban, then you'll get a ban. You not liking it is exactly the point.
You think I'd rather pay hundreds, if not thousands in bail instead of spending several nights in prison for free? You think banning members from a forum on the internet is going to make us 'learn a lesson'? How immature do you think we are? Banning isn't supposed to be a punishment. It's to keep unwanted users off the boards.
tulip wrote:Americans, Democracy, vote for rules:
These arguments make me laugh for the most time, as does "This is a free country!" when someone has stolen from the supermarket. Almost completely beside the point, plus the pckf, as Ceilick has pointed out multiple times, is neither a country nor a democracy. None of the moderators have been voted.
The members who are not empowered greatly outnumber the mods. We could organize and take action to take down mods we don't like. Or we'll move out and start another forum to leave you guys alone here, content with having the pckf your way.
tulip wrote:As for the rules, I'd also like to see which ones are seen as so ridiculous or oppressive that you feel intimidated by them. Suggestions about improving them can be made, but bare in mind that decision stays with the moderators, reason see previous paragraph.
At the point we (I) were introducing the rules I didn't want to do this but was forced since people were deliberately trying to make things unpleasant to prove they can. Later we had to revise them, and yes even make them more strict, because people (may have been partly the same ones I don't remember) have tried to show us loopholes. So essentially I'm against having to have rules, but I'm not against reviewing them.
I just looked over the forum rules sticky. There isn't anything there I object to. Except the "don't impersonate others" rule is pretty hard to enforce when someone can make an anonymous proxy account and keep their original account safe if they don't get caught.

And let's see here... Rule #2: Don't spam post: saying things like "yay 900th post", "what", and other irrelevant things is not okay.
What's the second post on this thread? "No u," by Ceilick. Shouldn't he get a warning for breaking a rule? That post was irrelevant garbage that didn't contribute anything, and he didn't even go back to delete it or edit it.

Speaking as someone who has trolled in the past, the more strict a board is, the more fun it is to find ways to troll. When a board doesn't have rules, it takes the fun out of trolling because you won't get in trouble for doing it, and it gets boring. It's kind of like robbing a bank versus stealing candy from a baby. It's too easy, so trolls don't want to troll there. Ironically, being less uptight could actually improve behavior here.
tulip wrote:Anyway, overall this whole thread seems like a relatively decent discussion so far, which is a surprise considering how it started. Only one I really don't understand is Keening_Product atm, except the rules suggestion.
I think what keening_product was trying to say was that this place had a more charming atmosphere when there weren't multiple mods. I think his stance is that the only users that should be banned are spambots and users who make repeated offenses, are actively troublesome, and show no sign of respecting the other members.

Here are some more of my thoughts on the whole Scarlet/Paramultart thing: From the admins point of view, there are these two members constantly arguing and won't stop responding to each other, spreading it across multiple threads. If you ban only one of them, it makes it look like you favor one over the other, which is unfair. Scarlet has repeatedly made biggoted, offensive posts with no remorse and made public posts presenting information to show Paramultart is liable for offensive instead of PMing the mods. Being the reactionary guy he is, paramultart responds to Scarlet with more posts and it's one big snowball effect. They were both banned, but I don't see what's wrong with favoring Paramultart over Scarlet. Everyone who has stated their opinions of the matter seem to agree that they want Scarlet to stay banned. But para was a fun guy. He may have made a lot of useless posts in the past, but he has stated several times that he's making an active effort to better himself and take the forum more seriously. I think his improvement is evident in most of his recent posts up until the point Scarlet made efforts to provoke him.

Except the three word story thread, where a lot of their heat went into. That entire thread was an incarnation of violations against rule #2 and it's about time it finally got locked.
Last edited by VikingBoyBilly on Tue Apr 17, 2012 17:46, edited 1 time in total.
Image
"I don't trust players. Not one bit." - Levellass

Dynamo
Vorticon Elite
Posts: 779
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 22:03
Location: Everywhere.

Post by Dynamo » Tue Apr 17, 2012 15:54

First, I would like to say that VBB's latest post is easily the best post I've seen in years and perfectly describes the situation while at the same time proposing logical solutions. About time someone uses actual logic.

Second, if I remember correctly, the forum rules were added exactly for rule #2 (Don't spam post: saying things like "yay 900th post", "what", and other irrelevant things is not okay.). Back then people like mortimermcmirestinks or LJH were making extremely retarded posts that were both unfunny and just caused spam, and I'm very glad LJH was banned. Back then I was one of those complaining that those people were let off the hook with no consequences whatsoever, but some people might say, "first you complain there isn't any control, now you say there is too much of it?", to which my answer is that I had a problem with spam and useless drama, not with jokes or other harmless posts.

I'm not sure if we still need rules around now that LJH is gone, since he was the one posting most of the dumb threads and telling people in private messages to suck his balls.
Paramultart wrote:
Scarlet wrote: Ckeen, that is just your opinion.
You can't tell CKeen that. He is always right.

Ceilick
The Dude
Posts: 1538
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 20:10
Location: Seattle

Post by Ceilick » Tue Apr 17, 2012 23:33

I agree with Tulip and glad he made a number of statements I wanted to but knew you guys would jump on if it was me. As both Flaose and Tulip have mentioned, a review of the rules by the forum is fine with me.
VBB wrote:For one thing, he hasn't admitted a single fault on his part in this entire thread, making defensive responses to everything brought up against him.
I've asked you guys to clarify my faults so that I can admit or reject them, but instead you guys have changed the subject/s and made impulsive attacks on other things rather than focusing on your points.
VBB wrote:When criticism against the way things are run here was brought up, his response was that he was satisfied with the way the forum is right now, meaning it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks as long as he's happy.
This is ridiculous. I've not said that my feelings about the forum are all that matter; you're injecting meaning and motivations, you're creating 'my ego'. I have only stated my feelings about the status of the forum.
VBB wrote:I was willing to be objectivist and accept that he wasn't doing it aware of the elitist connotations for a second, but after seeing those screens keening_product posted, I'm opted to suspect he might be outright lying about some details to present himself as morally correct.
So now my moral standing is in question? I love you guys. Especially considering no one asked me if it was alright if private conversations I was involved in were made public. However, I'm not sure what, if anything, you guys are having an issue with in those logs.
VBB wrote:Banning isn't supposed to be a punishment.
That's for the moderators to decide.
VBB wrote:We could organize and take action to take down mods we don't like. Or we'll move out and start another forum to leave you guys alone here, content with having the pckf your way.
You can't do the first. You're welcome to the later.
VBB wrote:What's the second post on this thread? "No u," by Ceilick. Shouldn't he get a warning for breaking a rule? That post was irrelevant garbage that didn't contribute anything, and he didn't even go back to delete it or edit it.
I've already explained this.
VBB wrote:Speaking as someone who has trolled in the past, the more strict a board is, the more fun it is to find ways to troll. When a board doesn't have rules, it takes the fun out of trolling because you won't get in trouble for doing it, and it gets boring. It's kind of like robbing a bank versus stealing candy from a baby. It's too easy, so trolls don't want to troll there. Ironically, being less uptight could actually improve behavior here.
No. This implies the only people worth trolling are people with power, and you know as well as I do that trolls will troll whoever takes the bait. That's any member, rules or no.

User avatar
TerminILL
Skypest
Posts: 589
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:59
Location: In a box.
Contact:

Post by TerminILL » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:13

here lies pckf
died because of drama

personally, crap like this thread discourages me from caring about the forums more than any given incidents. frankly I'm amazed Ceilick bothers moderating at all considering what he has to put up with.

also: PCKF has been going to hell for a while now. you're standing on a sinking ship and just now wondering why things are starting to get wet. remember Cereal?
Shonikado wrote:Looking back on what we've done and wanting to change it is the first step in becoming a weakling that cannot do anything.

User avatar
Commander Spleen
Lord of the Foobs
Posts: 2359
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 22:54
Location: Border Village
Contact:

Post by Commander Spleen » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:45

TerminILL wrote:personally, crap like this thread discourages me from caring about the forums more than any given incidents.
^

A guide to visiting PCKF:
Step 1. Open browser tab
Step 2. Go to pckf.com
Step 3. Click "Mark all forums read"
Step 4. Close tab

User avatar
The Keen Commander
Vortininja
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 18:42
Location: Atchison, KS (hometown: Olympia, WA)

Post by The Keen Commander » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:57

I personally have no problem whatsoever with the way the forum has been moderated. Of course, I'm not out to cause trouble either. If anyone wants to jump all over me for that, go for it.
I'd like to get a Futurama mod going. Here's what I've got so far:
Image
http://www.pckf.com/viewtopic.php?t=2152

User avatar
Keening_Product
Kuliwho?
Posts: 2089
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:02
Location: Tied up in the Oracle Chamber's basement
Contact:

Post by Keening_Product » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:09

"I think what keening_product was trying to say was that this place had a more charming atmosphere when there weren't multiple mods." - Nah, not quite. The multiple mods are fine, and the mods themselves are fine. Was just saying there was character in people breaking rules some of the time.

And yaknow, having stepped back and actually thought about this, I've realised I'm mostly here for Keen these days, and that's what this forum can still provide regardless of moderation.

I stand by my previous suggestions, but I logged in just now hoping to see Keen and saw next to nothing. (I accept that I'm probably partially the cause of that by being involved with this thread, which seems to be driving people away on its own.) Who wants to do some kind of community project just to re-focus and, yaknow, be Keenish? Not a mod or levelpack, but something we can all do? (Make a new thread if you like the idea to keep this one on-topic, but if there's no interest I'm not gonna make a relatively directionless thread somewhere which no one posts in.)
Image
"Wise words. One day I may even understand what they mean." - Levellass

User avatar
VikingBoyBilly
Vorticon Elite
Posts: 4155
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:06
Location: The spaghetti island of the faces of dinosaur world for a vacation

Post by VikingBoyBilly » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:19

Keening_Product wrote:Who wants to do some kind of community project just to re-focus and, yaknow, be Keenish? Not a mod or levelpack, but something we can all do?
I tried looking for a way to contact John Carmack yesterday to ask about why zenimax won't let go of those Keen rights. But I failed and got sidetracked by one of team ID's old softdisk published games, Rescue Rover. It's amazing their games had so much quality even back then.

But what I'm getting at is we can all be more proactive with Megatrip's thread.
Image
"I don't trust players. Not one bit." - Levellass

elecdude33
Mad Mushroom
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 15:00
Contact:

Post by elecdude33 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 14:10

This might be the last post I make in this thread (MIGHT, as in if I post again that doesn't mean I broke a promise).

Here's what it boils down to for me: I came to PCKF, back when I first did, ultimately because Keen was fun and finding out there were more people who liked the series increased the fun. Learning about modding, level editing, seeing fan art and different people's thoughts on Keen is fun for me. I'm here for Keen and Keen-related things.

As I grew up, I started to notice more that although forums can be fun, they're never perfect. There are stupid arguments, pointless posts, arguable mod or admin decisions, bannings and thread lockings. That stuff? It was always there. I just didn't always see it. I don't like it. I'm not here to argue, which is why I always feel a little uneasy even posting in this sort of thread.

I hope this can get sorted out. I do have a fondness for this place, which is why I occasionally come back for a while. On the other hand, it's time for me to accept that online communities, just like offline ones, will always change.

PCKF, I want to thank you. Through the good times, and the bad, ultimately I don't think I'd be who I am now without you. Learning about Keen, about modding, level design, and much more has been important to me. You've helped shape the way I think about Keen and the way I see games in general. If I hadn't gone for it and made that crappy old Keen 0 mod, I might've been sitting around wondering what it's really like to make my own levels.

And I remember Xky being there to give me constructive criticism when I was working on the mod. How KeenRush told me he liked it. The time I saw a review saying it was a piece of crap. That hurt, but that was important to me too. I think of how talking to CommanderSpleen helped change the way I think of level and game design in general. The PCKF was there to keep the game I loved alive in my mind so much longer than it might have been, and to help the kid who drew his own levels on paper discover how to bring them to life.

I know this is sappy. I may be pouring my heart out. I may be misremembering all sorts of things. This isn't goodbye, this is just "thank you, but from now on I'll stick to the parts of the community I enjoy the most".

:)

Locked