So we're all on drugs

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Levellass
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So we're all on drugs

Post by Levellass »

Well, Americans (And some Australians are. http://nautil.us/issue/7/waste/blissed_ ... rce=feedly

It seems that pretty much all the water anywhere is pumped full of chemicals just because we're such a medicated society. Oddly, were these compounds pesticides the water would be considered undrinkable at these levels.


So yeah, drugged water supplies have arrived, not due to government conspiracy but general incompetence.
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Post by Paramultart »

Woo, free drugs. Thanks, big pharma.
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Post by Dynamo »

so is water illegal now?

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Post by chrissifniotis »

CKeen wrote:so is water illegal now?
Only when you smoke it.

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Post by troublesomekeen »

chrissifniotis wrote:
CKeen wrote:so is water illegal now?
Only when you smoke it.
That's impossible. Oh wait, I do it all the time with plastic straws. :smokin2
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Post by Keening_Product »

Watch out, druggies will be hitting the saunas pretty soon!
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Post by guynietoren »

Was thinking bottled water isn't ground water... but it is in most cases. Either spring water or purified tap water.

Suppose this is kind of like the study that found trace amounts of "fecal mater" on toothbrushes in a clean bathroom.

But some drugs are effective with very small doses. Such as LSD. But still it would take a lot of contamination to get that far even.

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Post by MoffD »

eh... some people only drink well water.

Also, is someone sock puppeteering?
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Post by Paramultart »

I don't drink city water for this reason. Also, fluoride.
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Post by Benvolio »

MoffD wrote:Also, is someone sock puppeteering?
At any given moment on the PCKF, the answer probably is "yes".
Paramultart wrote:fluoride
The fluoride issue is, in my opinion, generally blown out of proportion. At worst, it may slightly discolour (not decay or erode) some peoples' teeth. But the issue gets trotted out, often by marginal parties, in an attempt to troll the mainstream powers-that-be, and mop up increasingly disenchanted sectors of electorates. Another such issue (sadly one might say) is cannabis.

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Post by Paramultart »

Benvolio wrote: The fluoride issue is, in my opinion, generally blown out of proportion. At worst, it may slightly discolour (not decay or erode) some peoples' teeth. But the issue gets trotted out, often by marginal parties, in an attempt to troll the mainstream powers-that-be, and mop up increasingly disenchanted sectors of electorates. Another such issue (sadly one might say) is cannabis.
I am inclined to disagree.
A lot of "issues" can be used as political talking points, but that doesn't negate their importance.

Fluoride has absolutely no purification purposes in our water supply, and suspiciously enough, the only official reason given for its abundance in our water supply is to "strengthen our teeth".

Even if it were to benefit our teeth, that's what fluoride toothpaste is for.
Last time I checked, our teeth weren't the government's responsibility, and you should have the right to choose what substances you put into your body. If you live in the city, you have no choice or voice on the matter.
Just think about how much you absorb transdermally when you bathe in gallons and gallons of this stuff.

Furthermore, if you are to argue that fluoride is a natural substance, you should know that the fluoride they use is not naturally derived, but rather industrial waste.

Regardless of where it comes from, it ranks on the toxicity scale between arsenic and lead:
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Post by Levellass »

I am inclined to disagree.

The wonderful thing about toxicity is that it's about as meaningful as 'dangerous' teddy bears are more dangerous than sharks (In terms of lives taken per year) but the danger is different in each case. Lead is a neurotoxin that accumulates in the bone and is very difficult to remove. Take a dose and you're affected for life. This is partly why its allowable threshold is so low; take a tiny dose regularly and it will build up until you die.

Arsenic is mainly a carcinogen and also tends to accumulate (though it's somewhat easier to remove.) Organic arsenic is almost harmless compared to the inorganic kind and a single dose (if inorganic) tends to linger.

Fluoride is lethal in extremely high doses when it wrecks your ions, but is poorly absorbed by the body; the only place it will accumulate is the surface of enamel or inside the enamel layer if consumed. Since teeth are 'dead' it is locked in. (Bone is living, and fluoride in it washes out rather quickly, as opposed again to lead and many other heavy metals that get 'stuck') As such fluoride doesn't accumulate, you need a relatively large does constantly to get poisoned and the only confirmed effect there is tooth mottling\discoloration. (Of course the things it's *blamed* for range from cancer to loss of psychic powers.)

Fluoride has absolutely no purification purposes in our water supply, and suspiciously enough, the only official reason given for its abundance in our water supply is to "strengthen our teeth".
I'm not sure why that's suspicious; I mean should there be MORE than one reason to do something?

Milk man, suspicious stuff, the only reason they want us to drink it is to 'strengthen our bones'. And iodine, what's with that? Why does it have to be in our salt? When did you last see someone with goiter?

The problem as I see it is that there's not that much benefit outside of mind control. The amounts needed are tiny (on an industrial scale) so no money is being made (Fluoride is sold to the aluminum industry where it is used in massive amounts (It actually boils off as it's used.) and in cermaics. There's an actual market there that won't benefit much from selling a pittance for water treatment.

It's not a complex drug, easily filtered out and found naturally in comparable concentrations to those used, this tends to argue against a major medicinal effect (Population control via sterility, mind control through altering the brain.) I mean the stuff's a trace!

Now chloride, that troubles me. It messes your body up bigtime an it's added to everything. Even your bread likely has added salt to 'improve flavor, there's a multibillion dollar industry behind it demanding we eat more and the stuff's mildly addictive.

Even if it were to benefit our teeth, that's what fluoride toothpaste is for.
Last time I checked, our teeth weren't the government's responsibility, and you should have the right to choose what substances you put into your body. If you live in the city, you have no choice or voice on the matter.
Aaah grand argument of freedom. It opposes fluoridation and vaccination alike.

I would counter that the government has a responsibility to improve the lives of everyone and that this must be balanced against individual freedom. We force children into schools, enforce laws, regulate business and add fluoride. We do things like this because it benefits everyone (Or at least should.)

Just think about how much you absorb transdermally when you bathe in gallons and gallons of this stuff.
Pretty much nothing. This may surprise you, but the skin is not a tongue. It is designed to keep stuff OUT. Go and rub some 'grass' on your arm, see how long it takes you to get high. Heck, try it with heroin! Spill some wine on your hand, how well does it stain? (And how hard is it to remove wine stains from carpet?)

When you see adverts for creams that supposedly have magic stuff that gets into skin, BULLSKIT! You have no idea how tough skin is to pass through, NO IDEA. It's the body's #1 barrier-defense.

Indeed very, very few things CAN bypass the skin, and when they do, it's bad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Wetterhahn Indeed, so confident am I of this I will gladly post pictures of battery acid on my hands eating a galvanized nail. (1M sulfuric acid takes several minutes to start really getting through skin.)

Furthermore, if you are to argue that fluoride is a natural substance, you should know that the fluoride they use is not naturally derived, but rather industrial waste.
And without that magical naturalness it is evil!

Atoms are atoms are atoms and the 'industrial waste' argument is wonderfully emotive. It makes you think they get the stuff straight from a barrel marked 'DANGEROUS' and dump it in the water. Surprisingly they actually do purify the stuff before using it and the big scary compound they use (Hydroflurosilic acid, so long, so chemical, so scare!) breaks down unless it's carefully kept concentrated. If anyone can find a way to tell the natural and 'unnatural' fluoride, a Nobel prize awaits you.

And what IS 'industrial waste' exactly? As I said most of the fluoride made by the superphosphate industry is used in aluminum production. What is pet food if not industrial waste? And recycled stuff? Gold, silver, platinum, they oft come from 'anode sludge' industrial waste of the copper industry.

You'd be amazed at how much of what we use originally came from somewhere else, that's perhaps the most wonderful thing about industry, one man's waste is another's treasure.

Regardless of where it comes from, it ranks on the toxicity scale between arsenic and lead
That's an LD50 chart, the amount required in a single does to kill 50% of a population. LD50 rating aren't used much nowadays, on account of being rather stupid. What we're usually interested in is not a single number but what happens above certain thresholds. A certain amount of lead has X effect, a certain larger amount Y and so on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_lethal_dose

It also depends on what compound you take (Remember Arsenic organic vs inorganic?) and how, is it oral (Eaten) or dermal (On the skin. Cyanide's dermal LD50 is more than 100 times its oral dose, go skin!)

Secondly, stupid charts. Could you label your axes charts? Is that 1 gram? 1 grain? 1 kilo? It's also only one estimate. The widely accepted estimates for LD50 in humans are:

LD50 mg\Kg
Pb: 5
F: 32 to 64
As: 185–6,400
Se: 6'500

Interestingly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride#Toxicology fluoride kills not by itself, but by disrupting your calcium balance; the fluoride ion itself is nearly harmless. Heck, they use it to treat osteoporosis.


That being said I'm not exactly a cheerleader for it, vaccination it ain't and it's not saving (that many) lives, if it wasn't so cheap and harmless it wouldn't be worth it.

guynietoren wrote:Was thinking bottled water isn't ground water... but it is in most cases. Either spring water or purified tap water.

Suppose this is kind of like the study that found trace amounts of "fecal mater" on toothbrushes in a clean bathroom.

But some drugs are effective with very small doses. Such as LSD. But still it would take a lot of contamination to get that far even.
Actual fecal matter is rather safe, you can even eat it (You won't forget THAT sentence in a while.) because it's something that is a natural part of the human body. It's as safe as say, blood. (In that you don't want to make a habit of ingesting it, the person who 'donated' might have some illness, but it's no cyanide.) When you hear about fecal bacteria, you can pretty much ignore it. Our hands and a large part of our skin are covered in it, toilets emit a *cloud* of the stuff (That's how it gets on your toothbrush1) and heck, it's *healthy* for a baby to be pooped on when they're born. (This gives them a dose of mom's healthy biota, the ultimate probiotic if you will.)

The problem HERE is that these 'tiny' does ARE having an effect; did you read the bit about the herm fish? Fish whoa re swimming in the water we (sometimes) drink are going bisexual, intersexual and transexual. These doses ARE having an effect.

And for some odd reason human fertility is declining in western nations. Probably a coincidence I'm sure. This, THIS is what I worry about far more than fluoride.
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Post by KeenEmpire »

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Post by Levellass »

*Slow clap*
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Post by candyjack »

chrissifniotis wrote:
CKeen wrote:so is water illegal now?
Only when you smoke it.
So what happens when you do smoke it? Will there be fire in the sky?

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