Stop sooking and try again

[Keening_Product]

Unimaginative modern gaming has ruined people's expectations of how games should work.

I'm sick of seeking the work of people like levellass (and many others, but hers is the most recent example) torn down by wussy gamers who don't have the attention span to spend an hour on a level.

If the game is too hard and you feel the need to complain about that then you're too soft. Do something else, mod the mod to make it easier for your maccas-melted brain and poor dexterity, or TRY AGAIN.

Do you complainers give up on life when, say, your shopping is too heavy and you have to carry it in two trips? Or did you give up on a class because after three assignments you didn't get 100 per cent? You spend too much time playing poorly designed, cheap games which present no challenge.

It took me years to beat Keen 4, which we got when I was little. I felt an enormous sense of accomplishment when something like five years after we got the game I finally completed it. It was a challenge.

Also, in many cases, it's not as if you need to start the whole thing over; in-game saving makes Galaxy mods much easier.

I'm no Keen god - I find many mods very hard to play, but that's a good thing. It's something to work towards. What I don't do is go out and attack the creator of the mod for not making something I could complete in half an hour.

Games are here to be fun, not just a way to kill a bit of time. If you think a mod is too hard then find another. Or make one yourself. If you choose the latter option I suggest this as an appropriate level design for your Keening skill:

You're welcome.

[mortimer]

[Paramultart]

Couldn't agree more, Keening_Product.

Games are supposed to be a challenge.

To anyone who whines about difficulty: Go stroke a Wii-mote some more, you filthy casuals.

[guynietoren]

Yup. I'd say go watch a movie if you don't want to actually earn your way through the game's story. The challenge helps bond you to the characters and drive the story deeper. I'm sure we've all watched a movie and felt nothing when a primary character dies, or a major relationship gets torn apart. Not every game tells a story, but the ones that do benefit from a healthy challenge.

[tulip]

I don't completely agree,

1) Levellass mods: Roughly estimated 80% of her releases are not really enjoyable for me not because I feel they're hard. It's rather because most of the deaths I get are caused by glitches, unclear hitboxes, and by the fact every second tile kills. It's not that I feel that it's a challenge and I can learn to succeed in it, I have more the feeling that death occur no matter what I do, and that is what sucks the fun out of it. Appart from that her leveldesign is generally super confusing, because she tries to put in every patching idea she has in every single, and she has a lot of ideas. (a similar thing happens for levels by stealthy for example).

2)

Also, in many cases, it's not as if you need to start the whole thing over; in-game saving makes Galaxy mods much easier.

I tend to hate that feature the more it gets abused. This feature is the reason I almost always like Vorticons mods more than Galaxy mods, because Galaxy mods are designed to force you to take advantage of this because the designers try to keep it a challenge while that feature is there, ending up to make the mod so hard you can't possibly play it without inlevel saving.

3) The designer knows his levels, therefore he perceives the difficulty level differently than one who tries it for the first time. This is a big problem if you don't use beta testers at all. Were talking about expectations here, and if a modder advertises his mod as "medium difficulty" and for someone who doesn't know the level layout it turns out to be super hard, that is a problem. Mazes for example I think have the largest in difficulty for some one who designed it and someone who plays it for the first time.

4) The last problem in mod difficulty is that many modders don't have the ability to create a learning curve (me included). Generally in a mod you play a few levels that all seem to be the same difficulty and suddenly you enter a level that has a completely different difficulty without letting you prepare for that.

So in the end I think it is some of those problems that cause "wussy players" to stop playing a mod, and then I think it's not the players fault but indeed the modders.

If none of the aforementioned problems applies then the fault may actually be on the players side, but that's to be evaluated.

[Benvolio]

Thank you for this topic, Keening_Product. I agree with your perspective on the issue, and though I didn't really come here to whine, I identify myself as one victim of the trend you describe, with regard to my most recent effort.

I accept that there are some people who aren't interested in the more difficult end of the spectrum of challenges that a Keen mod can present. I'm fine with that, but it seems that the community as a whole is alienated by difficult mods.

Like most others, I freely admit that my playing skills are mediocre and that I find difficult mods, notably KeenRush's works and 'The Ruin of Roib', to be a challenge. But this actually makes me like the mods all the more and rank them highly. Particularly when the difficulty is achieved through innovative means. (This applies particularly to KeenRush's mods such as Extinction, Fall Up and TFGITU). I go through phases of working at trying to beat levels in these mods. But I would never write them off on the basis of their difficulty.

Tulip makes some very salient points in response. He highlights that with the power to make a mod difficult comes the responsibility to ensure that it works well for the player and that the difficulty is translated into a pleasurable leisure activity for players. I guess that the more difficult a modder is aiming to make their work, the more testing it needs. Ideally third-party beta testing but at the very least, rigorous testing by the modder.

The importance of a learning curve is key, as Tulip correctly stated. I believe KeenRush is a master of this, particularly in Fall Up and Episode Smile. I certainly tried my best to achieve some sort of curve in my recent effort. But I guess that, if you are trying to keep the whole length of a game full of surprises, then it is difficult to train the player to gradually achieve the ability to complete these surprise challenges. It is also quite difficult when you remember that we aren't the ones programming the engine, so subtle increments in difficulty can be hard to achieve.

The bottom line is... all of what we do here is optional entertainment but ideally the work and thoughtfulness put into any project should receive an appropriate amount of attention and respect, in order to perpetuate positive feelings and reinforce the idea that it is better to create than not to create.

[Roobar]

Nah. This is way too hard.

[Ceilick]

If game is not fun, then it's not fun. If the game is 90% saving and loading (I exaggerate), it's not fun, it's a task.

Galaxy mods are designed to force you to take advantage of this because the designers try to keep it a challenge while that feature is there, ending up to make the mod so hard you can't possibly play it without inlevel saving.

Exactly. They accentuate the fact that Keen Galaxy at it's heart is a 'broken' game system. The original games kept it on the down low through relatively moderate and infrequent difficulty; it wasn't necessary to save everywhere or repeatedly hit the same death tile and reloading until finally making that expert 1 in 10 maneuver. It wasn't necessary to have lightning reflexes for each pixel scroll of the screen or cautious tap movement through hazards or even guess what will kill and what won't. These things force save game abuse and take time away from actually playing.

These games are meant to be fun, a challenge, an accomplishment, but they're also meant to be played.

Interesting discussion, especially since I've been preparing a post over at Keen Modding concerned with the issue of save game abuse.

Edit: The aforementioned here.

[StupidBunny]

I tend to hate that feature the more it gets abused. This feature is the reason I almost always like Vorticons mods more than Galaxy mods, because Galaxy mods are designed to force you to take advantage of this because the designers try to keep it a challenge while that feature is there, ending up to make the mod so hard you can't possibly play it without inlevel saving.

This is true. These days, I usually play Keen Galaxy without in-level saving, for the exact reason that it keeps things a challenge. It can make levels like the Pyramid of the Forbidden really time-consuming, especially on hard, but it's a lot more fun and interesting to play that way than "I'm gonna save after every tiny obstacle I manage to pass."

It's also the reason why I always playtest my Doom maps from pistol start without any in-level saving: I know just about anything I make can be beatable with enough saving, but when your level has devolved into waiting to have the right stroke of luck on every single event, it's not good design anymore. This may be kind of to tulip's point, which is that a truly good challenge is one that forces you to learn. It's no fun if a game panders to whatever skill you might already have, without having your ability develop alongside the game's story and progression; but it's also no fun when the game puts you at the mercy of luck, at which point it becomes more tedium than challenge. I guess it's to say, being fair and being easy are definitely not the same thing, and a game can be really hard while still being more or less fair. A lot of my favorite NES games show a bit of both elements--there are certainly places where the game is needlessly arcane, or difficulty comes more as a result of stiff or limited controls--but by and large they operate by consistent rules, give the player little clues in exploring and figuring things out themselves, and are built to become easier with enough persistence.

[Ceilick]

Inspired by keeningproduct's scdreeny, I'm totally making keen 4 abridgec now. and I'm really drunk.

[Rorie]

Example My father who I am estranged from whinges about the cost of filling up the tank of his vehicle but yet continues to keep doing so and not take the bus which is heaps cheaper than private transportation, solution is that if you cannot afford to pay to use a private vehicle or to fill up the tank

USE THE BLOODY BUS OR LEARN TO BALANCE YOUR FINANCES!

[Keening_Product]

Having read comments and reflected on what I wrote, I should make an amendment/clarification: if easy games are fun for you then good, and I shouldn't bitch at you for that like I did because I like some super stupid games myself. But liking easy games doesn't give people a right to diss those who make insanely difficult ones. I should restrict my comments just to that group of people - whining about difficult things does nothing.

Tulip, I agree about in-game saving being a horrible way to play and try to avoid doing it myself. But if mod creators create mods with significant in-game hurdles with that in mind, that's up to them. Though if they're not intending that to happen, yes, they certainly should have better beta testing. And yeah, unintended glitches can make games seem unfair. The wussy players I was referring to were not the ones who give up, but those who give up and feel the need to complain about it. I've put aside many difficult mods, but I don't feel I've been wronged by the game's creator. Also your points do apply, and thank you for making them as I hadn't really considered a few of those points addressing how/why players get frustrated to the extent they do.

Benvolio: KR's mods are a perfect example - excellent design, concepts and modding but no walk in the park. Something to be chipped away at gradually, which certainly doesn't suit everyone. But I'd hate to see him stop making mods (unlikely) just because people were horrible to him about level design. Without his mods we'd lose some spectacular and spectacularly difficult mods.

Ceilick: it's subjective as to whether in-game saving is fun or not, but good point. Your K:M post is interesting, and I don't think map-only saving is too harsh like you suggested it could be. I'm a big fan of it. I think also the ability to exit a level without finishing and being able to return to it later would be a good way to avoid people giving up for low ammo or just not wanting to keep on with the level. Obviously that wouldn't work for barrier levels or levels where you can't return to the entrance point, but it could work in some scenarios. Is it possible to patch to allow that much in-game data from several levels to be saved?

Drunk Ceilick: please do! I was actually going to make a level pack, but it'd probably take me two years just to make that level.

[Paramultart]

If game is not fun, then it's not fun. If the game is 90% saving and loading (I exaggerate), it's not fun, it's a task.

But see, that's entirely subjective, and I believe that is the point KP's trying to make. For some Keeners, frequent in-level saving/loading is not necessary, even in some of the more challenging levels.

I suppose that since the keenmunity is as tiny as it is, it would make sense if mods catered to the average Keener's skill level, but that's the designer's choice to alienate a majority of their audience.

[guynietoren]

I suppose I don't mind save/loading my way through a few levels. So long as most of the game isn't like that. If it's the last few or maybe a bonus level.

[Ceilick]

Of course it's subjective. Fun and difficulty both are. Games being "supposed to be a challenge" is. The whole thing is. I bring this up because

If the game is too hard and you feel the need to complain about that then you're too soft.

This is utterly wrong and subjective. If someone's not having fun (for whatever reason) why shouldn't they complain. Why shouldn't they say "I'm not having fun because it's too hard".

...it would make sense if mods catered to the average Keener's skill level, but that's the designer's choice to alienate a majority of their audience.

Exactly true. Modders aren't obligated to meet anyone's expectations. But if a general release is made anyone should be able to pop up and say "Hey it didn't meet my expectations for fun because..." They aren't entitled to their expectations, but why shouldn't they assume they were among the intended audience.


Also, given the contextual thread where this is all coming from, I'm surprised Keening_Product picked 'difficulty criticism' rather than the far more offensive criticism of a mod author's 'artistic integrity' in changing their work.