The Lorax

Discuss your favorite movies, books, and music here or just lounge around and see what other people think is classy.
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Deltamatic
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Post by Deltamatic » Fri Oct 22, 2010 21:42

I don't see how it's unethical to kill bacteria, plants, insects etc.(.?)
Relying on intelligently designed technology for our survival would be better than relying on our bodies' bionano. If we just keep living unmodified we'll eventually die.
Nature adapts well to its own disasters. If we fully controlled our surroundings there wouldn't be disasters in the first place.
As for efficiency, I'm thinking long-term. We'd regret wasting energy on a nonsentient biosphere when the stars had died.

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Post by MOM4Evr » Fri Oct 22, 2010 21:55

Deltamatic wrote:I don't see how it's unethical to kill bacteria, plants, insects etc.(.?)
Well, I sure wouldn't like to eat manmade slime every meal. I like my vegetables!
Problem is, us humans have a tendency to mess things up. Just think of how many computer crashes there are in the world every day. I sure wouldn't like to be the guy to program something that's supposed to control the weather. Whoops, I set this variable wrong... now we're going to have massive hailstorms for the next month...

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Post by StupidBunny » Fri Oct 22, 2010 22:09

Deltamatic wrote:As for efficiency, I'm thinking long-term. We'd regret wasting energy on a nonsentient biosphere when the stars had died.
When our sun expands into a red giant, it won't matter because we won't be on Earth in the first place. It doesn't matter how much technological advancement there might be in the next 5 billion years, we won't be able to survive when the planet is engulfed by the sun and vaporized unless we're not on it.

The problem is that, as MOM4Evr points out, the human species is capable of causing plenty of disasters of our own. The nice thing about the Earth being regulated by a self-sustaining, nonsentient system is that there's really no way a malicious minority of people could ever use it against other people. And the fact of the matter is that, as much as our technology may advance in the centuries to come, we as a species will almost certainly retain our age-old tendency to fight amongst ourselves. And it's at least comforting that the biosphere, our current basis of survival, is incapable of being subverted against us short of its being totally destroyed.

As for your other point about whether it's unethical to eliminate species with limited or no sentience...this is an endless point of argument, but I would personally simply hate to imagine wiping out entire species of anything simply because they were "unnecessary." Perhaps its simply because I have a deep-set appreciation for life and the natural world, but I wouldn't want to live in a world without plants, wild animals, and uninhabited open space away from human society.

Also...I can't help myself, I'm reminded of this...
The Khmer Rouge wrote:To keep you is no benefit. To destroy you is no loss.
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Post by KeenEmpire » Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:31

VikingBoyBilly wrote:I've had the book since I was a kid, and I always saw it as the Lorax representing indigenous people
The Lorax seems less of an actual indigenous character and more of a mythical "if nature could speak what would it say" kind of thing. It does, however, sound a lot like an environmentalist protestor in the video.

Indigenous people historically don't react and warn with such clout, more like are driven off or murdered. The Lorax may appear a victim at first, but at picking himself up and flying off through a hole in the smog, he's really just a myth.

As for long-term efficiency, the universe will end up frozen, an we're going to be kicking ourselves that we ever bothered to improve anything ever.
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Post by Deltamatic » Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:17

@MOM4Evr: wow, your username is hard to type. You could still eat vegetables and do whatever you want in a VR environment, I wouldn't want to get rid of the status quo to replace it with something inferior. Weather wouldn't be an issue without an atmosphere.
@StupidBunny: Yeah we'd better be somewhere else 5bil years from now. Inter-human conflict can be solved by modifying humans' brains or putting moral nonhumans in charge. Species wouldn't be wiped out because they were unnecessary, but because they would have used energy that we'd like. Yeah, killing unintelligent things is debatable, especially when applied backwards to us. Maybe all life could be converted to programs and given virtual paradises to live in. (Fly paradise? Ebola paradise? But then again our paradise is bound to be abhorrent to other intelligent species which evolved under different conditions.)

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Post by mortimermcmirestinks » Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:24

Well, I liked The Lorax, the book anyway. Never seen the TV thing...
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Post by VikingBoyBilly » Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:32

Deltamatic wrote:@StupidBunny: Yeah we'd better be somewhere else 5bil years from now.
Umm... in 5 billion years the human species will be extinct. Period. No otherworldly colonization or any bullfucl like that is gonna extend human existence in the universe for that long.
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Post by Grimson » Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:36

Extinct or evolved.

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Post by RoboBlue » Sat Oct 23, 2010 14:48

KeenEmpire wrote:
VikingBoyBilly wrote:I've had the book since I was a kid, and I always saw it as the Lorax representing indigenous people
The Lorax seems less of an actual indigenous character and more of a mythical "if nature could speak what would it say" kind of thing. It does, however, sound a lot like an environmentalist protestor in the video.

Indigenous people historically don't react and warn with such clout, more like are driven off or murdered. The Lorax may appear a victim at first, but at picking himself up and flying off through a hole in the smog, he's really just a myth.

As for long-term efficiency, the universe will end up frozen, an we're going to be kicking ourselves that we ever bothered to improve anything ever.
To be honest, I'm almost seeing the Lorax as a parallel to the kind of nutbag protesters that make the environmental movement look bad, because they don't know what they're talking about.
Let's look at the basics: he appeared the instant the first tree was chopped down, to be a nag (which may have encouraged the Onceler to ignore him).
What did he say when he first appeared? It wasn't "HEY YOU CUT DOWN MY HOUSE!", it was "I know what's best for EVERY tree and it's not YOU!"
Then, he never tried to adapt to the situation, and used the same tactics that had failed before to convince the Onceler that he was wrong repeatedly. This, again, made him a nag that the Onceler would want to ignore. In the end, he just gave the guy a look, in that "I told you so" way, and left, even though as the Onceler seemed to indicate at the end, it was possible for the area to become green again. This means that, ironically, not only did the Lorax probably contribute to the mess by sending people in power the wrong message, but he abandoned his own responsibilities even though there was still a possibility for the area to be made green again (anything can happen in a thousand years).
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Post by KeenEmpire » Sat Oct 23, 2010 20:45

RoboBlue wrote: To be honest, I'm almost seeing the Lorax as a parallel to the kind of nutbag protesters that make the environmental movement look bad, because they don't know what they're talking about.
Let's look at the basics: he appeared the instant the first tree was chopped down, to be a nag (which may have encouraged the Onceler to ignore him).
What did he say when he first appeared? It wasn't "HEY YOU CUT DOWN MY HOUSE!", it was "I know what's best for EVERY tree and it's not YOU!"
Then, he never tried to adapt to the situation, and used the same tactics that had failed before to convince the Onceler that he was wrong repeatedly. This, again, made him a nag that the Onceler would want to ignore. In the end, he just gave the guy a look, in that "I told you so" way, and left, even though as the Onceler seemed to indicate at the end, it was possible for the area to become green again. This means that, ironically, not only did the Lorax probably contribute to the mess by sending people in power the wrong message, but he abandoned his own responsibilities even though there was still a possibility for the area to be made green again (anything can happen in a thousand years).
Now that's what I call an unconventional interpretation.
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Post by No. 1 Machop Fan » Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:33

If this is the Dr. Seuss Lorax I'm thinking, then the message is the effects of destroying and polluting the environment solely for profit. Men chopped down trees to start a business, the land got polluted and the poor air quality forced the business to shut down. All the while the Lorax was trying to protect his home.

"Please! I speak for the trees!"
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Post by Paramultart » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:49

This cartoon made me cry. I don't see why it has a "poorly constructed" message. It's pretty straightforward and honest, and more relevant now than ever.

Also:
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Post by RoboBlue » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:55

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Post by StupidBunny » Mon Aug 15, 2011 13:38

No, if you want to see a Dr. Seuss propaganda cartoon that might ruin your childhood...

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Post by VikingBoyBilly » Mon Aug 15, 2011 15:25

plz don't tell me that was supposed to justify the Japanese American camps after perl harbor. Dr. Seuss, for all your books teaching lessons agains prejudice and racism... why????
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