Sound player for KeenWiki

This is where you can post your Commander Keen related stories, artwork, or other stuff that is related to Commander Keen but otherwise doesn't belong in another forum.
User avatar
Nisaba
Vorticon Elite
Posts: 648
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 23:34
Location: The Outpost
Contact:

Sound player for KeenWiki

Post by Nisaba » Fri Oct 06, 2017 0:24

Topic split from The Incredible Machine (TIM) 1992 music format - this thread's original post was initially published after this post by Malvineous. --Fleexy
Malvineous wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 23:22
[...] I've updated the VGMPF page, thanks!
Having a similary playback feature for our KeenWiki would be neat.
"We have come to conquer you all and bring you lots of candy!" | avatar | about | current project

User avatar
Malvineous
Shikadi Webmaster
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 21:48
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Incredible Machine (TIM) 1992 music format

Post by Malvineous » Fri Oct 06, 2017 14:00

Unfortunately this isn't a playback feature, the songs have to be recorded and then the recordings uploaded, which takes up a fair bit of disk space. The VGMPF can do it because they're on an unlimited-storage hosting plan, but alas the KeenWiki isn't. (It used to be but I found the performance too poor and the outages too frequent.)

If you can find/create a web-based OPL synth that genuinely plays back the tiny IMF files live in the browser then that would be a much better proposition as it would take up next to no extra resources, and conceivably would make it practical to include playback of mod music as well as the official tracks.

User avatar
Nisaba
Vorticon Elite
Posts: 648
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 23:34
Location: The Outpost
Contact:

Sound player for KeenWiki

Post by Nisaba » Fri Oct 06, 2017 21:20

Mmmhhh... I see.
Maybe @Fleexy has an idea/can help us out on that?
"We have come to conquer you all and bring you lots of candy!" | avatar | about | current project

User avatar
Fleexy
Tool Smith
Posts: 1335
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:21
Location: Abiathar C&C
Contact:

Re: The Incredible Machine (TIM) 1992 music format

Post by Fleexy » Fri Oct 06, 2017 22:00

Unfortunately I also have limited storage, though I haven't even used 1 GB out of my 50. I'd be happy to store some stuff - how much space are we considering?

There's an IMF to WAV converter; could that be ported to JS?

User avatar
MoffD
Vorticon Elite
Posts: 1144
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 17:30
Location: /dev/null
Contact:

Re: The Incredible Machine (TIM) 1992 music format

Post by MoffD » Sat Oct 07, 2017 14:51

Web based opl synthesizer? That would be hella nifty
mortimermcmirestinks wrote: Now I wish MoffD wasn't allergic to me.
Levellass wrote:You're an evil man.
Image

User avatar
Nisaba
Vorticon Elite
Posts: 648
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 23:34
Location: The Outpost
Contact:

Re: The Incredible Machine (TIM) 1992 music format

Post by Nisaba » Wed Nov 08, 2017 18:14

Fleexy wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 22:00
Unfortunately I also have limited storage, though I haven't even used 1 GB out of my 50. I'd be happy to store some stuff - how much space are we considering?

There's an IMF to WAV converter; could that be ported to JS?
talking about IMF files size of the whole Keen 4 soundtrack we can estimate: ~50kb.
The whole galaxy collection: ~260kb
converted into WAVE format, we are talking about: ~150MB
converted into OGG with an acceptable compression rate: ~15MB

http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/Keen_4_Music#Download
"We have come to conquer you all and bring you lots of candy!" | avatar | about | current project

User avatar
Fleexy
Tool Smith
Posts: 1335
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:21
Location: Abiathar C&C
Contact:

Re: The Incredible Machine (TIM) 1992 music format

Post by Fleexy » Wed Nov 08, 2017 20:52

15 MB (or even 150 MB) is no problem. I'd be happy to unzip a package of the sounds somewhere publicly accessible, then the wiki can embed a player that accesses those files.

User avatar
Nisaba
Vorticon Elite
Posts: 648
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 23:34
Location: The Outpost
Contact:

Re: The Incredible Machine (TIM) 1992 music format

Post by Nisaba » Wed Nov 08, 2017 22:51

Malvineous wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 14:00
[...] the songs have to be recorded and then the recordings uploaded, which takes up a fair bit of disk space. The VGMPF can do it because they're on an unlimited-storage hosting plan, but alas the KeenWiki isn't. [...]
Fleexy wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 20:52
15 MB (or even 150 MB) is no problem. I'd be happy to unzip a package of the sounds somewhere publicly accessible, then the wiki can embed a player that accesses those files.
So the next step would be to add a player feature to the wiki (@Malvineous). depending on the format compatibility I would then convert the tunes and sounds in question and hand them to @Fleexy.
"We have come to conquer you all and bring you lots of candy!" | avatar | about | current project

User avatar
Malvineous
Shikadi Webmaster
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 21:48
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Incredible Machine (TIM) 1992 music format

Post by Malvineous » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:22

Just bear in mind that good quality recordings already exist on the VGMPF: Keen 4 Keen 5 Keen 6.

The only way you could do better than this would be to record the files on actual OPL hardware with a Digisnap or similar, as those ones look like they were recorded with the Nuked OPL emulated synth.

User avatar
Nisaba
Vorticon Elite
Posts: 648
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 23:34
Location: The Outpost
Contact:

Re: The Incredible Machine (TIM) 1992 music format

Post by Nisaba » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:08

Because I don't understand the least of the technicalities, this is just a shot in the dark: I remember that there is a AdPlug/Winamp binary, with AdPlug 2.2.1 core and OPL3 support. shouldn't this be somehow helpful in terms of the capability of decoding and playing IMF files?

other than that, these recordings are indeed good quality. but of course we have a couple of additional mod tracks In the conversion queue as well.
"We have come to conquer you all and bring you lots of candy!" | avatar | about | current project

User avatar
Malvineous
Shikadi Webmaster
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 21:48
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Incredible Machine (TIM) 1992 music format

Post by Malvineous » Thu Nov 09, 2017 23:17

The AdPlug emulator is only an approximation, and until recently it was far from perfect, so for a long time playing IMF files sounded different to the way they do on a real PC. AdPlug uses the same emulator as DOSBox, and both of them by default play the songs back imperfectly.

For an example, play the Nuked recording from the VGMPF for "Please Don't Metal With Me!" and take note of the three-note sound effect at 0:18 (it's very quiet so listen carefully.) Then load Keen 6 and warp to level 6, and listen to the same song. 18 seconds in, that sound effect is completely different.

Now if you go into your DOSBox configuration file and find the "oplrate" option, and change it to 49716 (the actual rate of the original chip) then run Keen 6 again, that sound effect will change once more.

So because there are all these variations, recording one imperfect version over another is, in my opinion, of limited value. It would be much more useful to record the original chip, as the recording can then be used as a reference to compare the emulators against. That recording could then be used to help improve the accuracy of the emulators, and since not everyone has access to an original OPL chip, everyone can hear the way the song is "supposed" to sound.

User avatar
K1n9_Duk3
Vorticon Elite
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:30
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: The Incredible Machine (TIM) 1992 music format

Post by K1n9_Duk3 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 23:25

Malvineous wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 23:17
It would be much more useful to record the original chip, as the recording can then be used as a reference to compare the emulators against. That recording could then be used to help improve the accuracy of the emulators, and since not everyone has access to an original OPL chip, everyone can hear the way the song is "supposed" to sound.
The only problem with that is that some sound cards used clone OPL chips, so the sound your OPL chip produces might not be exactly the same as the sound the composer was getting to hear while creating the song.
Hail to the K1n9, baby!
http://k1n9duk3.shikadi.net

User avatar
Malvineous
Shikadi Webmaster
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 21:48
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Incredible Machine (TIM) 1992 music format

Post by Malvineous » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:35

Very true, you'd have to do it on an original Yamaha chip. Luckily the clones are pretty easy to spot. Although if they are true clones (as in, the plans for the Yamaha chips were stolen) they should sound exactly the same...

User avatar
K1n9_Duk3
Vorticon Elite
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:30
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: The Incredible Machine (TIM) 1992 music format

Post by K1n9_Duk3 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 21:15

No, what I meant was that the composer might or might not have used a Yamaha OPL chip in the first place. This makes it even less likely to record any OPL-based music the way it was "supposed" to sound, unless you can track down the composer and ask him/her what sound card was used.
Hail to the K1n9, baby!
http://k1n9duk3.shikadi.net

User avatar
Malvineous
Shikadi Webmaster
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 21:48
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Incredible Machine (TIM) 1992 music format

Post by Malvineous » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:42

Ah yes, if the composer was cheap and got an off-brand sound card then that may well be true! But I was thinking less about what the song is supposed to sound like and more about what the chip/emulator is supposed to sound like, for the sake of getting OPL emulation as accurate as possible.

Post Reply