Gaming discussion with CKeen

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MOM4Evr
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Post by MOM4Evr »

CKeen wrote:Calm down, I didn't want to offend you, I just posted what you said.
No offense taken. Sorry if I came across as angry, I didn't mean to.
CKeen wrote:Besides, how does being 7 imply that RA1 is a "too gory" game?
Playing games as a 7 year old where you go around shooting other people isn't exactly the best thing to be doing, man. :crazy Games rated "Teen" are rated "Teen" for a reason. (I actually can't remember if Red Alert was rated Teen, but I think it was)
CKeen wrote:This is false on so many levels. "95% of the games out there" aren't fun? Are you kidding me? Again, proves you pretty much have no idea about videogames in general.
Sorry, I think I phrased that a bit poorly. Sure most games are fun (I'd say 95% of games ARE fun, excluding some pathetic Big Fish Games and the like). That's the point, right? Just finding games that are clean AND fun is really hard. I don't personally like games that are too terribly easy, or lack depth of gameplay, like a lot of the titles out there.
CKeen wrote:Besides, at your age you shouldn't really bother about "violent or not" games anymore.
I'm sorry, I just don't think that way. I'm a Christian, not to say that that means "Doom is bad, violent video games are of the Devil, yadda yadda yadda", but I don't personally find any glory in games that involve blowing other people up, killing stuff constantly, naked women, cuss words, etc. Games like that for me just don't seem fun at all. I'd rather play a game that has depth of gameplay than a game that has complicated controls or "cool" graphics.
CKeen wrote:And I don't want this to be taken as an offense by you. It's just a fact.
Hee, hee. Define "fact." ;)
Fluiq wrote:But these days I get SICK of these fps titles.
Yep. A pretty overused genre. I'd personally like to see more creativity on the part of game developers. And the big game companies wonder why developers who come in and create cool, new ideas for games (aka indie game companies) do so well... I think most people are sick of the same old same old.
Fluiq wrote:It seems that the small companies are not afraid to start a new type of gameplay, and the big companies want to stick with the trusted gamplay.
Thats why we probably won't see anything revolutionary in gaming from any company soon.
But there's always hope in the small guys doing cool stuff. :)
CKeen wrote:What the ---- happened to gameplay?
Really, what DID happen to good gameplay? Keen uses the left and right arrow keys and two other buttons (If you play with two-button firing, which I do), and feels incredibly fun. I played this LOTR game once that had all these complicated key combinations you had to memorize to be able to do some powerful sword swing. Pathetic. I just hacked back and forth by pressing one button over and over. Games are supposed to be a fun diversion, not some complicated thing you have to memorize how to use.
CKeen wrote:Care to name more that aren't Nintendo's or other ultra-milked franchises like Spyro or Ratchet that got lame after their third game?
I always thought Mario was cool. But then again, I've never played it.
CKeen wrote:
Fluiq wrote:The answer is: Big companies just want to make BIG games with a formula that has worked for ages, so they can sell it for $60 on release date.
(Instead of a small game for $10)
Yeah. Unfortunately. Also I'm not sure if you could call those BIG games since they're usually ultra short and linear. Which is also why they suck.
I couldn't agree more.
CKeen wrote:The hanged commander keen sprite was an idea by Adrian Carmack because during the keen era he became tired of working with a "silly character" and wanted a more serious game. I can't blame him for that, either.
Dunno. Are serious games really better? And what constitutes "better"?
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Post by Dynamo »

EDIT: you can read the various "closed-minded"s in the post as "narrow-minded". I can't be bothered to edit it.
MOM4Evr wrote:No offense taken. Sorry if I came across as angry, I didn't mean to.
Good :)
MOM4Evr wrote:Playing games as a 7 year old where you go around shooting other people isn't exactly the best thing to be doing, man. :crazy Games rated "Teen" are rated "Teen" for a reason. (I actually can't remember if Red Alert was rated Teen, but I think it was)
Why not? I've been playing Doom and Red Alert since when I was 3 and I don't consider myself to be a serial killer. Games rated "Teen" are rated "Teen" because families association, christian groups and all that garg (no offense) annoy the fucl out of video game developers.
MOM4Evr wrote:Sorry, I think I phrased that a bit poorly. Sure most games are fun (I'd say 95% of games ARE fun, excluding some pathetic Big Fish Games and the like). That's the point, right? Just finding games that are clean AND fun is really hard. I don't personally like games that are too terribly easy, or lack depth of gameplay, like a lot of the titles out there.
But why would you want to look exclusively for clean games? (you already answered below though).

Also, games don't need to be easy or hard, they just need to be fun although definitely challenging at times. As for the lack depth of gameplay, that's call of duty for you.
MOM4Evr wrote:I'm sorry, I just don't think that way. I'm a Christian, not to say that that means "Doom is bad, violent video games are of the Devil, yadda yadda yadda", but I don't personally find any glory in games that involve blowing other people up, killing stuff constantly, naked women, cuss words, etc. Games like that for me just don't seem fun at all. I'd rather play a game that has depth of gameplay than a game that has complicated controls or "cool" graphics.
If you are implying that being christian means being closed minded then fine. But if you aren't, then you are closed minded. How does being christian mean you can't play "violent" games? I know countless religious people (Doom 2's main level designer is a mormon) who play the so called violent videogames. also this statement:

"not to say that that means "Doom is bad, violent video games are of the Devil, yadda yadda yadda""

automatically contradicts this one:

"but I don't personally find any glory in games that involve blowing other people up, killing stuff constantly, naked women, cuss words, etc."

In other words, games like Keen might have weird forests with plants with eyes as their setting, whereas games like Duke Nukem 3D feature guns and blood. There really isn't much difference if you think about it.

This is exactly like, I hate nazism and I refuse to play Wolfenstein 3D because it features swasticas in the textures. How pointless is this? (I still don't play the original Wolfenstein 3D game though, because I think it's a very boring and repetitive game.)

So yeah, if you're going against "violent" games at least come up with a better argument that doesn't show you're closed minded. (I still don't want to sound offensive). I won't even go on to mention the "Violence in videogames is not like violence in real life, if you kill a person in a video game you don't kill one in real life"
MOM4Evr wrote:Hee, hee. Define "fact." ;)
Everything I said so far is a fact. Prove me wrong.
MOM4Evr wrote:Yep. A pretty overused genre. I'd personally like to see more creativity on the part of game developers. And the big game companies wonder why developers who come in and create cool, new ideas for games (aka indie game companies) do so well... I think most people are sick of the same old same old.
You people treat FPS games like they have always been the only type of game in existence. They simply replaced platformer games in terms of the most popular genre. Whereas I hate with a passion games like Call of Duty, disliking a game just because it's a FPS is a pretty pointless decision.
MOM4Evr wrote:It seems that the small companies are not afraid to start a new type of gameplay, and the big companies want to stick with the trusted gamplay.
And I've already said why.
MOM4Evr wrote:Really, what DID happen to good gameplay? Keen uses the left and right arrow keys and two other buttons (If you play with two-button firing, which I do), and feels incredibly fun. I played this LOTR game once that had all these complicated key combinations you had to memorize to be able to do some powerful sword swing. Pathetic. I just hacked back and forth by pressing one button over and over. Games are supposed to be a fun diversion, not some complicated thing you have to memorize how to use.
I agree. But I didn't mean to say there aren't good games in the market anymore because there certainly are.
MOM4Evr wrote:I always thought Mario was cool. But then again, I've never played it.
This is exactly like saying "Keen is cool but I don't know what it is". Like, seriously? You have never played Mario? Get "The Second Reality Project Reloaded" at once.
CKeen wrote:The hanged commander keen sprite was an idea by Adrian Carmack because during the keen era he became tired of working with a "silly character" and wanted a more serious game. I can't blame him for that, either.
Dunno. Are serious games really better? And what constitutes "better"?[/quote]

Doom isn't even a serious game. Look at how unrealistic the maps look. As in serious I just meant less light-hearted than a 2d platformer.

I have more fun playing Doom than Keen obviously because of the more variety in the traps and gameplay.
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Post by StupidBunny »

MOM4Evr wrote: I'm a Christian, not to say that that means "Doom is bad, violent video games are of the Devil, yadda yadda yadda", but I don't personally find any glory in games that involve blowing other people up, killing stuff constantly, naked women, cuss words, etc. Games like that for me just don't seem fun at all. I'd rather play a game that has depth of gameplay than a game that has complicated controls or "cool" graphics.
This sort of reminds me of a Southern Baptist missionary I once met who told me he wouldn't play WoW 3 or Doom because they had demons and Satanic imagery in them. To be fair I think your reasons are a bit more reasonable though. :P

As for your second point, about gameplay, complicated controls and cool graphics, you should read threads like these that regularly come up in the Doom community. Doom is an FPS, yes, but the reason it's fun is that it has very simple controls, streamlined, fast-moving gameplay, and a clean and limited engine which doesn't dedicate vast quantities of memory to making super-realistic environments. Like any well-designed game of skill (Commander Keen included), Doom is very easy to learn but can take years to really master.
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Post by DHeadshot »

[quote=CKeen]"not to say that that means "Doom is bad, violent video games are of the Devil, yadda yadda yadda""

automatically contradicts this one:

"but I don't personally find any glory in games that involve blowing other people up, killing stuff constantly, naked women, cuss words, etc." [/quote]False Dichotomy. There is middle ground between Planet of the Babes and Barbie and The Threee Princesses. Personally, I play Quake, where half the enemies are monsters etc. No moral qualms about killing ravenous beasts for self-defence.
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Post by Dynamo »

DHeadshot wrote:There is middle ground between Planet of the Babes and Barbie and The Threee Princesses. Personally, I play Quake, where half the enemies are monsters etc. No moral qualms about killing ravenous beasts for self-defence.
I agree. In fact, I meant that there is middle ground between Doom and Dead Space. While I can understand not liking Dead Space because of that, Doom and RED ALERT........ Like, really?
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Post by Lava89 »

StupidBunny wrote: This sort of reminds me of a Southern Baptist missionary I once met who told me he wouldn't play WoW 3 or Doom because they had demons and Satanic imagery in them.
I myself do not play Doom because of the presence of demons in it. And it is my right to feel that way. I however, do not tell other people what they should or shouldn't play (primarily because video games are such a gray area of what people feel comfortable playing, even among Christians, I can't say that my belief on it is anymore correct).

Merely stating what you don't feel comfortable playing is perfectly fine in my book.
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Post by Dynamo »

Lava89 wrote:
StupidBunny wrote: This sort of reminds me of a Southern Baptist missionary I once met who told me he wouldn't play WoW 3 or Doom because they had demons and Satanic imagery in them.
I myself do not play Doom because of the presence of demons in it. And it is my right to feel that way. I however, do not have a right to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't play (primarily because video games are such a gray area of what people feel comfortable playing, even among Christians, I can't say that my belief on it is anymore correct). Merely stating what you don't feel comfortable playing is perfectly fine in my book.
(Again, I don't want to sound offensive and do not take this post as an offense because I don't want it to be one) It is true that you have the right to feel the way you want, but it's impossible to deny that not playing a game only because it contains elements that your religion hates is pretty much the dumbest reason possible to not play it. I mean I can understand refusing to play a game because in there you're some sort of nazi officer and have to shoot on defenceless civilians, I wouldn't play that, but in Doom the "demons" not only are pretty weird (mechanical spiders with plasma rifles) but are also supposed to be the bad guys.

Refusing to play a game because it contains strong language, violence or blasphemy equals to missing out many extremely cool games around. No matter if your religion says demons are bad, refusing to play a game because of religion IS a narrow-minded attitude. And also proves the first point I made in the topic (partly narrow-minded community) right.

I don't want to get into a religion debate here, but I still think it should not affect private life so deeply. Again, I did not want to sound offensive with this post.

Since I believe I phrased this post terribly, I mostly wanted to know what's wrong with demons in Doom since they're supposed to be the bad guys and you're supposed to fend them off.
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Post by mortimermcmirestinks »

Is it narrow- minded to not show your kids a movie because the bad guy swears every other sentence? Even if it's the bad guy doing it? I would not show my kids a movie, or even let them play a game, that had bad language, even if it WAS always the bad guys saying it. If a kid saw a movie that had bad guys swearing, he might think it was okay to say them, even if it was the bad guys. You know, bad guys say "the", too.
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Post by Lava89 »

CKeen, how can you tell me that refusing to accept the fact that someone wouldn't want to play a game because of their religion \ personal beliefs, isn't close minded in itself? I find that to be more narrow than anything.

I'm not trying to insult you, just stating an observation. It just seems like you're having a hard accepting people's differences on this issue-- if you are not and are just stating your own opinion on this issue, then I do apologize if I addressed your post the wrong way.

As a final note, I purposefully did not address your posts on this topic because it seemed like you accepted people's opinion on this matter, more or less. I addressed StupidBunny's post because I wanted to let people know who might feel the same way I do on this issue to not become shunned.
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Lava89 wrote:CKeen, how can you tell me that refusing to accept the fact that someone wouldn't want to play a game because of their religion \ personal beliefs, isn't close minded in itself? I find that to be more narrow than anything.
This
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Post by mortimermcmirestinks »

DHeadshot wrote:
Lava89 wrote:CKeen, how can you tell me that refusing to accept the fact that someone wouldn't want to play a game because of their religion \ personal beliefs, isn't close minded in itself? I find that to be more narrow than anything.
This
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Post by Ceilick »

It is true that you have the right to feel the way you want, but it's impossible to deny that not playing a game only because it contains elements that your religion hates is pretty much the dumbest reason possible to not play it. I mean I can understand refusing to play a game because in there you're some sort of nazi officer and have to shoot on defenceless civilians, I wouldn't play that, but in Doom the "demons" not only are pretty weird (mechanical spiders with plasma rifles) but are also supposed to be the bad guys.
The problem is your reasoning that "showing something as a bad guy makes it okay to to show it in the first place". Regardless of whether 'demons' and demonic imagery is shown as good or bad, its there, and thats where some people have a problem. Its dark imagery and some people find that disturbing, while others have a higher tolerance for being exposed to that kind of material.
Refusing to play a game because it contains strong language, violence or blasphemy equals to missing out many extremely cool games around. No matter if your religion says demons are bad, refusing to play a game because of religion IS a narrow-minded attitude.
Maybe its narrow-minded in the realm of video games, but it is in no way is it a narrow minded world view, its just having personal principles that don't prioritize gaming.
And also proves the first point I made in the topic (partly narrow-minded community) right.
Dude, no, step off the Doom stuff for a bit; not playing violent and/or games involving 'demons' does not mean a person doesn't play other video games and does not support your initial argument. You're better off straight up asking "Who doesn't play video games aside from Keen and a few dos titles".
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Post by StupidBunny »

I actually have to ask the same question as CKeen did: why do the demons in Doom prevent you from wanting to play the game, when in fact you're killing them rather than helping/playing as them? It's the same logic as saying playing Wolf3D makes you a Nazi, I would figure the opposite logic would be true. You have the right to not like it, but I just find your rationale really confusing.
mortimermcmirestinks wrote:Is it narrow- minded to not show your kids a movie because the bad guy swears every other sentence? Even if it's the bad guy doing it? I would not show my kids a movie, or even let them play a game, that had bad language, even if it WAS always the bad guys saying it. If a kid saw a movie that had bad guys swearing, he might think it was okay to say them, even if it was the bad guys. You know, bad guys say "the", too.
This is a reasonable point, although it applies more to parents raising kids than anything else. If parents decide that violence, nudity, profanity, etc. are things that children shouldn't be exposed to (and many do), then that's their decision. Of course, parents can expose their children to some rather perverse forms of morality on their own, and I'm sure there are parents out there who buy games like "Ethnic Cleansing" for their kids.
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Post by Dynamo »

mortimermcmirestinks wrote:Is it narrow- minded to not show your kids a movie because the bad guy swears every other sentence? Even if it's the bad guy doing it? I would not show my kids a movie, or even let them play a game, that had bad language, even if it WAS always the bad guys saying it. If a kid saw a movie that had bad guys swearing, he might think it was okay to say them, even if it was the bad guys. You know, bad guys say "the", too.
We aren't talking about kids here :| I admit I didn't play games with swearing when I was 3, though. I didn't even know what swearing was.
Lava89 wrote:CKeen, how can you tell me that refusing to accept the fact that someone wouldn't want to play a game because of their religion \ personal beliefs, isn't close minded in itself? I find that to be more narrow than anything.
I'm not refusing to accept this fact, I simply don't understand it, which is exactly why I quoted your message.
Lava89 wrote:I'm not trying to insult you, just stating an observation. It just seems like you're having a hard accepting people's differences on this issue-- if you are not and are just stating your own opinion on this issue, then I do apologize if I addressed your post the wrong way.
Well I really have no problem with what people think, all I'm trying to say is that no matter if you don't play games that aren't like keen because you either hate violence, or the game is against your religious beliefs, or if the game used to be the favourite game of the kid who pissed you at school, etc, it automatically results in part of the community not playing many games other than Keen. I'm not referring exclusively to you here of course since from what I know you DO play more games. And even if you didn't it's not a bad thing. Just trying to get a picture of the situation, nothing more.

I respect everyone's beliefs and opinions and whatnot. But I wanted to understand what was wrong with demons since they're supposed to be the bad guys. So you didn't get what I was trying to say with my post and I can't blame you since I phrased that one terribly.
Lava89 wrote:As a final note, I purposefully did not address your posts on this topic because it seemed like you accepted people's opinion on this matter, more or less. I addressed StupidBunny's post because I wanted to let people know who might feel the same way I do on this issue to not become shunned.
Alright, I guess.
Ceilick wrote:The problem is your reasoning that "showing something as a bad guy makes it okay to to show it in the first place". Regardless of whether 'demons' and demonic imagery is shown as good or bad, its there, and thats where some people have a problem. Its dark imagery and some people find that disturbing, while others have a higher tolerance for being exposed to that kind of material.
Still doesn't make much sense to me. StupidBunny pretty much already replied to this part. Maybe I'm just stupid but I fail to see how seeing a swastica on a texture on a videogame where you are supposed to stop nazis can be disturbing.
Ceilick wrote:Maybe its narrow-minded in the realm of video games
Yeah, I was talking about video games. So yeah, I assume you're agreeing with me on this one.
Ceilick wrote:Dude, no, step off the Doom stuff for a bit; not playing violent and/or games involving 'demons' does not mean a person doesn't play other video games and does not support your initial argument. You're better off straight up asking "Who doesn't play video games aside from Keen and a few dos titles".
The point is that, Doom or not Doom there's loads of games where there's blood and even though there is blood I think they're still very fun to play and may even appeal to those who have "moral problems" with them. What I will never get is how you can have moral problem with a game, something which is supposed to have fun with...
Last edited by Dynamo on Thu Nov 11, 2010 22:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lava89 »

Well I see it like horror movies. Just because Jack the Ripper is the bad guy, doesn't mean I want to see him chop people up. In the same way, I don't like to surround myself in a hellish environment and play in such a world.
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