Is sonic better than keen?

Cobalt · Post by **Cobalt** » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:41

Yeah it s.

Give Commander Keen a super form. He needs special stages and chaos emeralds so he can transform into Super Keen.

Roobar · Post by **Roobar** » Tue Apr 23, 2013 15:38

You dare to ask such a question in the PCKF?!?!?

Cobalt · Post by **Cobalt** » Tue Apr 23, 2013 20:21

I just think the neural stunner won't kill super sonic.

Not like Commander Keen gets an invincibility mode (unless you count the ankhs from Vorticon VI)

Boreas249 · Post by **Boreas249** » Tue Apr 23, 2013 21:06

Sonic is Sonic.

Keen is Keen.

Both are awesome in their own ways. And should not be mixed in with each other.

Not bringing Super Sonic into it either because that's Sonic on a whole other level.

VikingBoyBilly · Post by **VikingBoyBilly** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 0:44

The ship parts are his chaos emeralds. BWB is Keen's super form.

Flyingmouse · Post by **Flyingmouse** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:55

Normally I would agree with Boreas249, but Keen and the classic Sonic series are similar in a lot of ways, the biggest being they're both platformers with a few puzzle elements thrown in (Keen moreso than Sonic).

I'd say Keen's games were more enjoyable (I'm a little biased since I grew up with the series), but Sonic is considerably better as a character (largely since Keen's personality wasn't really explained much and just seems kinda generic tbh, whereas Sonic's personality was basically his general premise- he was designed to have an attitude to rival the gaming titan that was Mario).

As for Super Sonic, he isn't COMPLETELY invincible, so it's not out of the realm of impossibility for Keen to best Sonic, even in super mode. I mean, the kid has an IQ 14 points higher than Eggman, and Eggman was capable of defeating Super Sonic twice (Sonic 3 and Sonic Unleashed; the Sonic 3 example was due to a glitch, though). Heh, even Knuckles could knock Sonic out of super mode, so just having the ability to turn super doesn't guarantee an automatic win. In a straight fight, however, Sonic's speed alone spells Keen's doom, as while his IQ is unnaturally high, he doesn't react to situations any faster than the average person does. If any of you watched Death Battle, Sonic's speed was mentioned in Sonic vs. Mario as being a trump card Mario just couldn't overcome, so who's to say the same wouldn't happen here?

Keen with a super mode wouldn't really make much sense. He seems more the character to figure things out with intellect, as opposed to just powering through obstacles. Special stages are essentially the same as secret levels, so... yeah.

lemm · Post by **lemm** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:54

I always thought Sonic was to Mario as Jazz Jackrabbit was to Keen. Sonic and Jazz were supposed to be focused on horizontal speed, while Mario and Keen were more "vertically" oriented.

As an aside, I think they could have done a better job designing the game play of Jazz Jackrabbit. The game was sold on speed, yet many of the levels were designed with rooms and platforms as opposed to adhering to a unidirectional, "track" style design, especially in the later episodes. Furthermore, the screen was tiny (and you couldn't shift it forwards or backwards), so there was no way you could react to what was ahead of you if you were running at top speed, and there was no gun that travelled at a 45 degree angle, so spamming the gun while running on a slope was useless.

Post by **Levellass** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:31

Indeed, Jazz was rather poorly done in places.

Interestingly it itself had a copycat, Toxic Bunny. It was even less well done.

I think there are problems with comparing Keen and Sonic for a number of reasons. Firstly, the two have vastly different product lines. Sonic's games number into the triple digits (Major ones into double digits.) while Keen was four, maybe five separate series. But, in the interests of nobody, I shall list their pros and decide on a winner.

Sonic:
* Well defined personality and character
* 3D games
* Massively popular
* Giant cast of side characters
* Has own comic strip
* Far better graphics, music and sound
* Faster
* Usually takes more than one hit to kill
* Has ripoff DBZ mode
* Massive numbers of powerups

Keen:
* Lack of fan community pornography
* Lack of stupid recolor 'OCs'
* Single, coherent continuity
* Keen 2006 does not exist

Winner: Keen.

MoffD · Post by **MoffD** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:36

Levellass wrote:Sonic's games number into the triple digits (Major ones into double digits.) while Keen was four, maybe five separate series.

As a general rule of thumb, never trust anything with more than 8 sequels
They usually get butchered after a while

Cobalt · Post by **Cobalt** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 13:03

Levellass wrote:* Lack of stupid recolor 'OCs'

Martinez McMeyer was super badass

Roobar · Post by **Roobar** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 15:59

Levellass wrote: Interestingly it itself had a copycat, Toxic Bunny. It was even less well done.

That by itself is very interesting, if not the most interesting thing in this topic. But interestingly enough, it appears that there's an HD remake of this game and I'm so gonna buy it now! So thanks! Funny.

While on the subjects of rabbits, there's also this game Hell Yeah which might be of interest for you. It's not exactly like Jazz Jackrabbit and thus not exactly my taste, but there's at least a (dead) rabbit in it and it's a platformer (close enough).

I don't know what's up with plaformers these days. Why with dead or toxic rabbits? Is this some kind of resemblance of the jump'n'run situation today? (i.e. dead and toxic) Meh...

Bernie · Post by **Bernie** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 17:29

hey, i really liked jazz jackrabbit. i preffered it over the sonic games (though i havent played the sonic games very much).

also, P.S, the problem with the comparison to keen and sonic is that one is a PC game, the other a game machine type. i dont know what it is exactly- but there are some aspects to PC games that are different, or if tried dont work, on a game machine. e.g, would there ever be a secret level with scottish aliens in a sonic game? or a detailed story and game help section? (that F1 deal in keen:galaxy).
if you ever tried wolf3d or doom on the snes, you'll know what i mean.

Lava89 · Post by **Lava89** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 21:59

Levellass wrote:Winner: Keen.

Was anyone expecting anything different on a Keen forum? haha

Flyingmouse wrote:Keen with a super mode wouldn't really make much sense. He seems more the character to figure things out with intellect, as opposed to just powering through obstacles. Special stages are essentially the same as secret levels, so... yeah.

I completely agree. Seeing Keen fight Super Sonic would be like watching Batman and Superman fight. So I'd be more interested in watching Keen and Sonic work together.

So there totally needs to be a video game character Avengers \ Justice League.

lemm wrote:I always thought Sonic was to Mario as Jazz Jackrabbit was to Keen. Sonic and Jazz were supposed to be focused on horizontal speed, while Mario and Keen were more "vertically" oriented.

Definitely. Look at the first level from Jazz 1, it looks like a mix between Green Hill Zone and Hill Top Zone from Sonic 2. And there's a castle level in Jazz that always reminded me of the marble zone. Plus Jazz has monitor power ups and even a "fast shoe" power up. It wasn't until Jazz 2 that it took on a feel of its own in the series, in my opinion.

MoffD wrote: As a general rule of thumb, never trust anything with more than 8 sequels
They usually get butchered after a while

They do? This is a subjective argument. So some Zelda, Mario and Megaman fans might disagree (this is however empirically true for the Need for Speed games....haha). And people who love Sonic Generations would also disagree.

I could see this "rule" applying to movies. But games, are always changing developers. So one group that might've screwed up "GameMan" 7 might return the series to its roots and make a really good "GameMan" 8. The people who made Sonic Adventure 2 weren't the same people who made Sonic Heroes (for better or for worse), even though Heroes was the next Sonic game in the series after SA2. The people making the Call of Duty games I'm sure get switched around..at Infinity Ward, alot of the core members left, even though the studio kept its name. I stopped following the series after COD4, but who knows, there might be a good game coming along in the future.

Even movies can escape this argument...look at the Nolan movies for Batman (not saying you have to be a fan of them...but empirically the financial success of the movies were restored after Batman & Robin's flop at the box office). Its just that I feel movies tend to fall into more corporate meddling than games can.

And Star Trek is a great example of why this doesn't work. I felt Star Trek 2009 was definitely better than the last two Star Trek movies before it. But again, its all subjective...I could use reviewer scores for both Batman and Star Trek, but there's no point using multiple opinions to argue against one opinion, since its all subjective anyways.

In a nutshell, I think talent is talent. If talented and competent people are in charge of something (and there's very little corporate meddling), something awesome can come out of it. It shouldn't matter how many sequels it has.

MoffD · Post by **MoffD** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 23:07

Lava89 wrote: In a nutshell, I think talent is talent. If talented and competent people are in charge of something (and there's very little corporate meddling), something awesome can come out of it. It shouldn't matter how many sequels it has.

True,
I was thinking more of constant continuing without changing much.

Post by **Levellass** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:37

Cobalt wrote:
Levellass wrote:* Lack of stupid recolor 'OCs'
Martinez McMeyer was super badass

Good point. I have to retract that argument.

I completely agree. Seeing Keen fight Super Sonic would be like watching Batman and Superman fight. So I'd be more interested in watching Keen and Sonic work together.

So you mean, like that time Batman used that piece of kryptonite had had because he has backup plans to kill every single one of the Justice League members in case hey go evil? Supes was rather annoyed as I recall to find out about that.

Keen I figure would simply blast Mobius from space or freeze time or build a machine that's all covered in spikes. (No weak spot! Beat THAT Sonic1) Keen is, after all, no Eggman, he's actually intelligent. It'd be the ultimate brains vs brawn. (Or physical speed at least.)

It wasn't until Jazz 2 that it took on a feel of its own in the series, in my opinion.

Indeed, with awesome things like the fire, electricity, laser and bubble shields! Wait...

But at least jazz could swim.

In a nutshell, I think talent is talent. If talented and competent people are in charge of something (and there's very little corporate meddling), something awesome can come out of it. It shouldn't matter how many sequels it has

Indeed, but after 8 sequels it's going to be likely n-talent gets a hold of the franchise. I think a good rule then is 'If your game has more than 5 installments, it's likely one is going to suck hard.