Operation Station Infiltration

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Tormentor667
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Re: Operation Station Infiltration

Post by Tormentor667 »

If you release this for Christmas I will feel like a little child again :)
Gridlock
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Re: Operation Station Infiltration

Post by Gridlock »

I thought I'd offer my own perspective on level design, though I worry it may come across as too harsh or contrarian. I personally find most levels that try to emulate the classic Keen style very boring these days. I think a lot of the magic in the originals came from their novelty to my kid brain, rather than anything inherent about their style of level design. To re-experience that sense of magic as an adult, I'm looking for levels that bring a sense of novelty compared to the overly-familiar originals. Trying to capture the magic of the originals by being like the originals doesn't tend to work for me.

To be honest, I did feel a bit of fatigue when playing Return to the Shadowlands. A few levels did stand out, such as Frigid Fortress with its unique and creative puzzle chambers. But, most of the levels felt very restrained in their design, to the point that they sometimes became monotonous. It may just be my over-familiarity with the original games, since similar themes and level design styles can't do much to surprise me anymore. I realize that my experience as a former modder may be different than the average player.

My favorite kind of Keen levels are those that take a creative idea/mechanic/structure and see how far they can push it. I especially love levels that take inspiration from the Zelda "puzzle box" style of design, where solving the level requires a holistic understanding of the level space and manipulating more complex elements in a macro context. When most puzzles just boil down to bringing a keygem from point A to B or pressing a switch once to open up a path, I tend to get bored. In fact, I've realized that clever puzzle designs combined with unique theming, rather than elements like combat, are usually what appeal to me most in Keen mods. Although it's true that limitations can breed creativity, when I hear about rules like trying not to use more than 3 keygems, that just strikes me as limiting your design potential. Plus, the Keen games are already pretty limited in their mechanics.

I guess what I'm saying is, I hope you don't feel like you're artificially constraining your creativity to match the feel of the original games too much. Personally, I'd much rather play weird levels that break the rules to experiment with creative new concepts, rather than levels that just play it safe in pursuit of balance or parity with the originals. In fact, difficulty is actually appealing to me as long it comes from intellectual challenge rather than aspects like combat or reflexes. Overall, I believe the Galaxy level format still has so much untapped potential, especially in the hands of a skilled modder.

I realize my personal preferences may not align with your design vision, and that's completely understandable! I hope these thoughts are at least useful even in the late stage.
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Ceilick
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Re: Operation Station Infiltration

Post by Ceilick »

I think you present a fair take, Gridlock. For some, the classic formula is going to get dull no matter how many variations of platform layouts and especially if new visuals aren't involved. This isn't the case for me, but I do understand it.

Regarding the stifling of creativity, I think I need to be upfront with what I recognize as my greatest weakness as a modder: I have never been good at pushing the boundaries of gameplay to create new and unique experiences and I don't think I'm a clever puzzle designer. I don't have much to say on this other than I just do not consider myself talented in these respects, particularly when comparing my work to your own, such as the Alphamatic.

But what I am talented at (or so I believe), and enjoy, is mimicry and creating scenes, and this series in particular is set up to play off of those skills and allow for creativity within that context (which unfortunately may be just too limited for your taste).

Perhaps sometime I'll try to design with a philosophy toward novelty and innovation, but most likely I'll just continue what I enjoy and feel I'm good at.

It sounds like most of the levels in this project aren't going to appeal to you, but I hope you do find some enjoyment in it if/when you play (perhaps the Shikadi Master innovations and the low gravity will grab your interest), and I do look forward to your impressions after playing, whatever they are!
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proYorp
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Re: Operation Station Infiltration

Post by proYorp »

Wise words, Gridlock.

(Also, brief side note in regard to difficulty, some people do prefer shorter levels.)


Ceilick wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 15:58 Question: If, for whatever reason, a DOS version is delayed, how receptive are you all to an initial Omnispeak release and a later DOS release?
Omnispeak mod? :eek That's the first I've heard of anyone doing such a thing. How would that work? Would it be its own executable or does Omnispeak work on a game package system like Commander Genius?

I might look around at the Omnispeak version just for kicks, but to actually play it I'd use the DOS version since I know that works well on my computer. Again though I don't have much preference for when it's released.
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Gridlock
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Re: Operation Station Infiltration

Post by Gridlock »

Yeah, that's completely fair, and I feel like I'm coming across as too harsh. Return to the Shadowlands was a really impressive effort and definitely evoked the spirit of the original Keen 4, and I can appreciate how much effort went into it. I think part of it is just getting older and busier... feels like Keen in general doesn't resonate for me way it used to, and that's really just a personal thing.

The new enemies and mechanics are really exciting, and I definitely think they can help to mix up the formula. I think that's the most compelling aspect of making a mod where you have some control over the programming. One of the biggest challenges with Keen mods, from my experience, is providing meaningful surprises and a sense of discovery, particularly when you're working with the same familiar mechanics from the original games. Having the ability to implement new ideas creates so much exciting potential.

Ultimately, I think you should make whatever is true to your vision. I think my worry was just letting the original games and design philosophies hold you back if you had bigger ideas. For me personally, experimenting and trying to piece together complex systems is one of the biggest joys of level design (often I'm doing it more for myself than for players). I say do whatever brings you the most creative fulfillment.
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Ceilick
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Re: Operation Station Infiltration

Post by Ceilick »

proYorp wrote:Omnispeak mod? :eek That's the first I've heard of anyone doing such a thing. How would that work? Would it be its own executable or does Omnispeak work on a game package system like Commander Genius?
It'll be it's own executable for windows. For everyone unfamiliar with Omnispeak or who want to see how it runs on their system, check it out here: viewtopic.php?p=102403&hilit=omnispeak#p102403
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Roobar
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Re: Operation Station Infiltration

Post by Roobar »

Oh yeah, I like Omnispeak, especially the latest version. I think it still has some slight issues, but it also adds plenty of options and features (like quick saving/loading, which is quite helpful).
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Re: Operation Station Infiltration

Post by Nisaba »

I read in the background your discussions and personal accents about your emphasis about how to design and structure levels and so on. Without contributing anything to the discussion at this point, I'll just briefly mention that it's because of such calm and reflective discussions that I love this community so much! Thanks for sharing your level designer philosophies.
This helps me a lot, also in the sense of getting my own point of view clearer and to find out according to which values or "horizons of meaning" I build my own levels. The more aware I am of these connections, the better I can become in my own qualities on the one hand, and at the same time this knowledge in relation to other approaches also makes it possible to get a view of the pitfalls and limitations that necessarily go hand in hand with the restriction of one's own view.
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Soul Monster
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Re: Operation Station Infiltration

Post by Soul Monster »

Sounds like everything is coming together! I really liked Return To The Shadowlands, and I'm looking forward to the new content that will be in this mod! If it does get released in time for Christmas, that will be awesome! Although, of course, it's always best to take your time. If it can't make that deadline, we'll understand.
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proYorp
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Re: Operation Station Infiltration

Post by proYorp »

I tested Omnispeak v1.1. It constantly lagged on my laptop. :( I definitely won't use it for a proper playthrough, sorry to say. It seems like a cool project.

Also 100% what Nisaba said.
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