Foray in the Forest

[Nowhere Girl]

P.S. I actually think that cheating in games is explicitly wrong only if you are doing it for competitive purposes. But I never play games in any competitive manner, I'm a loner and play games by myself. If someone is playing for oneself, I think that one is free to cheat (and the developer is free to feel sour about it).

[Dave216]

I, for one, believe that one should always put themselves in the author's shoes. Especially when you're making the most anticipated project, you know well that hundreds of people will play your work with different skills and familiarity with the game. It's natural that you want to reward skill and patience. This also, I believe, gives the game replay value.

The same way you could argue that I hide the true endings of my mods in somewhat complex puzzles, which you could also say is unfair to folks who don't enjoy puzzles or don't have the patience or time to solve them...

I do understand that it feels like you're unfairly left out of some content for no reason, but it may give incentive to players to experiment and improve their play styles to experience all the cool stuff
 

[Nisaba]

P.S. I actually think that cheating in games is explicitly wrong only if you are doing it for competitive purposes. [...] If someone is playing for oneself, I think that one is free to cheat (and the developer is free to feel sour about it).

Don't worry, the game can be played with cheats activated. There is nothing wrong about that, as we have deliberately left cheats in.

My goal was always to make sure that every preferred way of playing would lead to a great experience. I tried to think of speedrunners as well as perfectionists who want to collect each and every item. Explorers are just as important to me as people who just want to get an overview with God Mode and Jump Cheat. This is also reflected in the endings. Those who cheat get a specially designed ending, as do those who have collected 100% or those who avoided collecting any points at all.

As a result of this concept, it is impossible to experience everything in one playthrough. So feel free to play to your liking, and hopefully enjoy the content that has been put together for this style of play. There will be things that remain intentionally hidden, but you will discover other things that were built exclusively for cheating.

And as I said, there will be a much more accessible mode with update v2.0, which is being worked on diligently and is being finalized as we speak.

[Nowhere Girl]

I currently feel stuck at the ACME Secret Factory. Any advice? I hope that it's not possible to genuinely get stuck there?...

[Nisaba]

I currently feel stuck at the ACME Secret Factory. Any advice? I hope that it's not possible to genuinely get stuck there?...

Hmmm... if you see a row of barrels, maybe look around. Up, down, left, right... but mainly up.
If however there are many doors and switches, don't be afraid to use them.
As a general rule of thumb it's a good idea to try to interact with the environment more than you normally would.
I hope this helps...

[clump]

Oh my god, how could I have missed the Christmass release of this mod? Nevermind, at least I noticed now during my summer holidays. I played just a few levels, but everything is great and feels almost like a Keen sequel I was dreaming of since my childhood (all the small new features, variety of graphics, somehow it feels a bit more “cinematic” etc.). I could not think of better holiday gift. Congratulations to all involved! Now I’m going to spread the word to all my friends who also grew up with Keen.

I have one small issue, though. I tried to play the mod on Steam Deck and I’m stuck at menu confirmations where it’s required to press Y to continue. No button on the Deck works by default (which is not a surprise), but not even remapping some of the buttons to keyboard key Y works. It’s a shame, as otherwise it looks and plays great on Steam Deck. (Btw I tried remapping the key in Steam OS controller settings menu and also in RetroArch DosBox core settings. All to no avail.)

Edit: EmuDeck corrected to RetroArch, my bad.

[Nisaba]

Oh my god, how could I have missed the Christmass release of this mod? Nevermind, at least I noticed now during my summer holidays. I played just a few levels, but everything is great and feels almost like a Keen sequel I was dreaming of since my childhood (all the small new features, variety of graphics, somehow it feels a bit more “cinematic” etc.). I could not think of better holiday gift. Congratulations to all involved! Now I’m going to spread the word to all my friends who also grew up with Keen.

Thank you for your kind words! I'm pleased to hear that you enjoy the game.

Maybe you'll wait a bit longer to tell all your friends about Foray in the Forest, as we're currently working on an update that will bring tons of improvements! It's really worth waiting for the update as we've put a lots and lots of time and love into the rework. I truly think it's way better than the initial version of the game. We are now in the final phase of development and will be pushing the update hopefully sometime soonish.

I have one small issue, though. I tried to play the mod on Steam Deck and I’m stuck at menu confirmations where it’s required to press Y to continue. No button on the Deck works by default (which is not a surprise), but not even remapping some of the buttons to keyboard key Y works. It’s a shame, as otherwise it looks and plays great on Steam Deck. (Btw I tried remapping the key in Steam OS controller settings menu and also in EmuDeck DosBox core settings. All to no avail.)

Regarding the problems with your Steam Deck: I was able to fix a few things for my own handhelds with some extra code. I have even thought about implementing a basic feature for handhelds. And I think at least Steam-Deck compatibility would be nice.
However, as I don't have a Steam-Deck at hand, perhaps you can help me out a little so that I can better understand the problems mentioned. Can you name the programs including their versions that you use to emulate DOS on your handheld. If you could, please also send me some screenshots of the said setting modes. Maybe we can figure something out

[K1n9_Duk3]

I’m stuck at menu confirmations where it’s required to press Y to continue. No button on the Deck works by default (which is not a surprise), but not even remapping some of the buttons to keyboard key Y works.

First, this is a DOS game. I can try to help, but debugging your weirdo handheld devices is not my job, especially since I don't own one myself. But I can tell you how the menu code in Foray in the Forest works.

If you set the controls to joystick #1 or joystick #2, then pressing button 0 on the joystick (the jump button) will count as pressing Y during the control panel confirmation dialogs (green text). If the game has detected a mouse, then clicking the left mouse button will also count as pressing Y during these prompts.

This does not work for the quicksave/quickload confirmation windows in-game (black text on white background). But you can get around that problem by disabling the confirmation for all three settings. Select CONFIGURE and then OPTIONS and set PAY-TO-SAVE, QUICKLOAD and QUICKSAVE to AUTO.

The keyboard input is processed at the lowest level possible on a DOS machine. That means keys are recognized by their scan code, not by the letter they produce. This is a potential problem, since the game is programmed for the US "QWERTY" keyboard layout. Other keyboard layouts may switch keys around. On German "QWERTZ" keyboards, for example, the Y and Z keys are swapped compared to the US layout, so I have to press Z on my keyboard to confirm. I've had to do this for more than 30 years now, so it's not new to me, but it can be a problem for someone who has never played these games before. French "AZERTY" keyboards are even weirder.

This means that if your device is set to a non-US language, mapping a button to Y might not produce the scan code for the US Y key in DOSBox and FITF won't be able to see that you tried to press Y. You should be able to test this by remapping one of the keys in FitF or by saving a game (on the world map, so you won't need to confirm to pay a life for saving) and pressing the button you wanted to use as the Y key. If the assigned key isn't Y or it doesn't type a Y into the name field, then the mapping is wrong. This is of course assuming that you haven't also mapped the same button to Enter or Escape, which could potentially exit from the text input before the game could process the Y key.

That is all I can say. For further help, you should really contact the tech support team for your device and/or the DOS emulator you are running on it.

[clump]

Maybe you'll wait a bit longer to tell all your friends about Foray in the Forest, as we're currently working on an update that will bring tons of improvements! It's really worth waiting for the update as we've put a lots and lots of time and love into the rework. I truly think it's way better than the initial version of the game. We are now in the final phase of development and will be pushing the update hopefully sometime soonish.

Allright, I will wait then! Now I just wonder if I should stop with my playthrough and wait too. Haven't encountered any significant problems yet, but the update sounds juicy, so I'll probably wait for a while.

Regarding the problems with your Steam Deck: I was able to fix a few things for my own handhelds with some extra code. I have even thought about implementing a basic feature for handhelds. And I think at least Steam-Deck compatibility would be nice.
However, as I don't have a Steam-Deck at hand, perhaps you can help me out a little so that I can better understand the problems mentioned. Can you name the programs including their versions that you use to emulate DOS on your handheld. If you could, please also send me some screenshots of the said setting modes. Maybe we can figure something out

Thanks! But somehow, the problem solved itself. Suddenly, the remapping of keys works, only thing I've done was not running the RetroArch emulator for a while, and in the meantime Steam OS and maybe even the emulator updated itself. Probably was just some stupid bug. Sorry for bothering you with it.

This does not work for the quicksave/quickload confirmation windows in-game (black text on white background). But you can get around that problem by disabling the confirmation for all three settings. Select CONFIGURE and then OPTIONS and set PAY-TO-SAVE, QUICKLOAD and QUICKSAVE to AUTO.

Thank you for elaborating! As I already replied to Nisaba, the problem solved itself without my direct input. Now even mapping quickload/save/pay-to-save to any button I want works! I'm sorry you had to kill time with me...

On German "QWERTZ" keyboards, for example, the Y and Z keys are swapped compared to the US layout, so I have to press Z on my keyboard to confirm. I've had to do this for more than 30 years now, so it's not new to me, but it can be a problem for someone who has never played these games before. French "AZERTY" keyboards are even weirder.

Haha, yeah, I know this QWERTZ vs QWERTY issue very well for more than 30 years of gaming too! We use QWERTZ layout as a basis for national layout in my mother language of Czech, probably because Germany is our neighbour. So this will not confuse us!

[clb]

Finished the game on Hard difficulty with 977800 points, thanks for a great production. Haven't really tried other Keen mods in the scene, though the fact that this game was recompiled from source made it feel like a gem to catch my eye.

Some game design aspects that came to mind during my playthrough. Though to note, these are _not_ written with _any_ desire or drive to change the game, rather just to think out my thoughts that occurred during gameplay, as a thought exercise only.

"Don't gatekeep the fun." is a classic saying from game design field, that I think applies to some of the decision made in Foray. Examples:

- saving costs a life, but not on Easy difficulty. I didn't want to play on Easy, because it lacks some of the content, and is too easy. But needing to pay a life to save makes game repetitive and invites grind. It is as if the game wants to prevent the player from enjoying a challenge and seeing the full content of the game.
- max 25 ammo. Just let the player have their ammo if they are able to save up?
- cannot save in the middle of the last lab level, but loading a save in that level will reload from the start of the level. I saved at the end to get to see the other ending, but after getting the ending, and the game quitting - I reloaded the save (actually, had three of them), but they all reloaded back to the start of the lab level, and not where I had saved. Not sure why this happened and if it was intentional or accidental, though it made me ponder if the game wanted my decision to be final and not make it so easy to see the other choice?
- also, reading this thread there is a comment that using cheat codes gives different ending for cheaters, that goes in the same gatekeeping bucket. There is nothing to be gained from dismissing a person who used cheats to enjoy the game. The cheat ending will probably make it even less likely that they will repeat the game, since they were called out.

"If you make optimal play a grind, the completionist gamers will still do it, but just dislike the game more for making them do it."

This is something that Brian Walker, the author of Brogue commented (paraphrasing) about designing gameplay mechanics.

After noticing that the game invites the player to collect all points (by showing a remaining score scanner, and giving the special complete flag), I wanted to collect all candies. So this becomes a meticulous choice of when and where to save. Optimal play wants you to save as rarely to preserve the lives for the most important spots for fast repeats, but then rarely saving results in having to replay already played parts whenever dying on accident. Lives become "too-precious-to-use" items like consumable gems, scrolls or potions in RPGs. Then the player won't save in the middle of a level to feel optimal, but gets punished for trying to be so.

The fact that the game rewards the player from collecting all the points in a level combines poorly with pay-to-save, and discourages exploration. For example, check out: https://oummg.com/dump/keen_secret.png

In order to discover if there could be secret points behind that wall, one most definitely has to pay a save there to get to do the 1+N jump repetitions to successfully get in position to explore the wall. But having to pay a life to gain information like that can be catastrophic for actual gameplay progress down the line (lead to a "dead man walking" situation when you only later discover you don't have enough lives to progress through some later level). This then runs into other decisions:
- after having gained the information about the potential secret in that wall, do I reload the game state from the map to avoid losing that life? (game inviting even worse incarnation of save scumming for optimal play)
- do I map out the levels on Easy difficulty first, to find the secret locations with comfort, and only then play on Hard, executing against mapped secrets (game not wanting you to play on Hard without having gained ulterior information first -> grindy)

Similar spots appear in other game levels that result in similar dilemmas.

This was a major turn-off really quickly, and made an otherwise _really_ nice game an uninviting grind (or a conscious decision to ignore collecting points, but what would be the motivation then, since so many levels can be completely skipped).

Fortunately the game is GPL, so I patched out the pay-to-save limitation, and the game turned into a very enjoyable experience. It was fun to explore the secrets in all the levels and not need to let the game degenerate into tedious grind.

I would make the game have infinite lives. Then the game would invite people to encourage bold moves and exploring, and enjoy completionist playthroughs. Even the more difficult spots in individual levels won't become blockers.

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Original Keen 4-6 games did not have mechanics to promote completionist play besides traditional high score. But given that Foray leans on this, the fact that one cannot replay a level becomes a limitation. If I missed a super secret in one of the levels (which I apparently did since I didn't get 1M points), I can't go back and explore the levels to see which one it might have been. Even though the game end screen lists things the player missed, the thought of having to grind all the levels from scratch in order to improve one level is too big of a barrier, so it is easy to lean to retire and not attempt to find the missing things.

Maybe completionist mechanics should mean that Keen should be able to re-enter a level (maybe with a clear dialog of "you already completed this level, but would you like to attempt it again?")

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As an example, the game end screen mentioned something about missing slug cans. I didn't take a screenshot or a video, and the game didn't let me reload the save to repeat the ending (and not feeling the grind of the last lab level again), and it doesn't show anywhere how many slug cans I collected - hard to approach how to even go about finding the missing cans, how many of them would be, where did I find the cans and where I didn't, and so forth.

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To close up, a sidenote thought: when Keen dies, the options that are shown are the classic
- repeat from checkpoint
- go back to map

I think it would be great if there were a third option "load last save" in the list, since that is often what one wants to do instead. (and then maybe sort checkpoint and save items based on whichever occurred more recently).

Anyhow, these are all just passing thoughts, not bargaining for anything. Of course the game is a fantastic achievement, with really interesting mechanics, levels, music and art, so big congratulations for such a great production. I've used this codebase for some technical vintage hardware benchmarking, so thanks for the great technical execution as well.

[Snortimer]

@clb,
There's some merit in that, I think. Exploration-based games I remember fondly such as "Toejam & Earl 2", or even Sonic, also make it relatively hard to die.
But you don't need to change the source. I'm currently playing FitF through the DOS emulator on my Miyoo Mini, and I just use save/load states to get around the in-game save system entirely. I mercilessly use the emulator's save/load hotkeys at tricky places.
I think once I get good enough at the game, I may at one point feel comfortable enough to play it the "proper" way.
Just like with the original Keen games, for years I played them mostly with cheats. It was only much later that I started enjoying playing them the "normal" way. But I kinda feel that the one made the other possible. I would not have been able to get far enough as a kid without cheats to like the games as much as I ended up liking them.

The thing that is surprising me with FitF is that, even on Easy, I find the game surprisingly difficult after the first few levels. So I'm glad I'm playing it this way.

Also, I have no idea what I'm supposed to do in the level with the hypnotised page who walks about. I wonder if I'm supposed to get something from another level?

P.S. clb, try Atroxian Realm. It's a source mod, too.

[Roobar]

Please tell me the patch you use to disable the saving cost life thing. Also, if there is a patch for unlimited lives as well.

[K1n9_Duk3]

I didn't want to play on Easy, because it lacks some of the content

No, it doesn't. And what makes you think that if you haven't even played the game before?

When you refuse to play on easy, you shouldn't complain about the game being too difficult. That's your problem. If you're playing on easy and the game is still too difficult, then the game design sucks.

- cannot save in the middle of the last lab level, but loading a save in that level will reload from the start of the level. I saved at the end to get to see the other ending, but after getting the ending, and the game quitting - I reloaded the save (actually, had three of them), but they all reloaded back to the start of the lab level, and not where I had saved. Not sure why this happened and if it was intentional or accidental, though it made me ponder if the game wanted my decision to be final and not make it so easy to see the other choice?

The level will only reset to the start if you got brainfucled after you saved the game. This was done on purpose.

Your comments about problems related to finding the missing points items will be addressed in the upcoming 2.0 update. The detector window will show an arrow pointing towards the nearest bonus item (there will also be arrows for lives, drops, keygems and the collectibles), so if you get close to an area like the one in your screenshot, you can check the detector. If it doesn't point towards that area when you're near it, then there probably are no items hidden there. If the points items are in a different part of the level (i.e., you must walk into a door to get there), then there will be no arrow, so they won't lead you in the wrong direction.

Cheaters get to see a special ending sequence, but almost everything leading up to the ending sequence is the same as in a no-cheating playthrough. The only difference is that you don't get to visit the secret levels along the way.

The 2.0 update will also feature a revamped checkpoint system that allows you to continue a set number of times from each checkpoint without losing a life. A game is all about making interesting decisions. We wanted saving to be one of those decisions. Is it worth saving your game at this point or do you think you can get past without it? If you think you might die, it's better to save and pay one life, rather than potentially wasting multiple lives if you fail more than once. The free restarts in the new version should allow the player to see what's coming without risking to lose a life, so that they have more information when they make the decision to save or not to save.

Also, I have no idea what I'm supposed to do in the level with the hypnotised page who walks about. I wonder if I'm supposed to get something from another level?

There will be a hint in the updated version. Everything you need is in that level, you just need to look around carefully. Look for the green key gem, it might be a bit hard to spot against the background.

Sadly, I haven't heard from Nisaba in a while. I will try to release the 2.0 update on Keen Day 2025, unless Nisaba re-appears in the meantime and tells me not to.

[Nowhere Girl]

- also, reading this thread there is a comment that using cheat codes gives different ending for cheaters, that goes in the same gatekeeping bucket. There is nothing to be gained from dismissing a person who used cheats to enjoy the game. The cheat ending will probably make it even less likely that they will repeat the game, since they were called out.

I will, nevertheless, want to replay the game. But only once the improved version is out. I'm too double-left-handed for the original difficulty.
But generally, I agree with you. Cheating for oneself, for 100% non-competitive reasons, for just being able to see all the levels, is a bit of weakness which could even be considered cute, and not the Bad kind of Cheating.
Unfortunately, I am just not able to complete platformers without cheating. My hands and eyes just aren't capable of that level of accuracy. (By the way... "double-left-handed" is obviously a metaphor, such a birth defect doesn't actually exist... but my strabismus is real and surely physical. When my right eye looks forward, my left eye looks far to the left. Let's say that I never suffer any adverse effects from reading, I can cycle... but still my strabisms might have something to do with why I'm not a good player of arcade-type games.

[stayfrosty]

1st time checking out FitF. Nice.

A few of the early levels I feel like I've played on previous versions:
- Manara Samara (a Dead in the Desert level?)
- Secret Reservoir (from a Keen 4 level?)
- The Outpost (not sure which game)

Not sure if that's intentional for the nostalgia factor but I definitely recall playing these level designs before.