Keen after TUIT: what now?

ckguy · Post by **ckguy** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 21:15

StupidBunny wrote:Also, let's not forget about this TUIT.

StupidBunny: Still bitter about this game ... five years later. o.O

edit: Damn it all the dumbest/most off-topic posts always end up as the first one on the next page argh

Dynamo · Post by **Dynamo** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 21:18

IT'S YOUR MALEFIC INFLUENCE, GOOD SIR.

Toothpick · Post by **Toothpick** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 21:27

Shadow Master wrote:I don't see Keen Dreams there.

I thought about that, but I wanted to make the graph as condensed as possible. I also thought about putting Xmas 2010 after Battle of the Brains, but I didn't know whether to put it on its own fork in the timeline or not.

DHeadshot · Post by **DHeadshot** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 21:46

Preston wrote:Here is a simple graph I made to illustrate how I see the Keen timeline.

Now that you are all aware the Keen universe has alternate timelines, maybe you can incorporate this idea into your mods.

You forgot Dreams!

Edit: Oops, missed the above updates...
Edit 2: Revised for inclusion of other mods:

Where would Shmaynoria fit?

StupidBunny · Post by **StupidBunny** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 23:27

Shouldn't Keen 0 technically fit before Keen 1?

Syllypryde · Post by **Syllypryde** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 23:42

KeenRush wrote:I don't really get this... "Keen 7-9" are excellent mods but they're not canon, they are fan-made just as anything else the fans have done. They showed what could have happened next. But the next has not happened yet since Tom doesn't have the rights. Why do people think they should continue from where K9 left (unless you're all joking)? I really can't understand why people try to count individual mods as a part of some larger story or try to fit their stories with other mods'.

I respect your opinion on this, Keenrush, and I can see why you do not understand how people like me and others are willing to accept Ceilick's unofficial TUIT as official canon. I do not expect you to agree, but at the very least I hope I can help you understand why some of us feel this way.

The answer is really simple actually. While you continue to hold on to the hope that Tom Hall will one day get the rights back to Commander Keen, many of us have moved on from this tender notion. You seem unwilling to accept the possibility that it may never happen, where a few of us are convinced it never will happen. It is noble of you to want to see Keen's creator return to finish the concept he started, but with all due respect, I believe you are being naive. While you are still holding on to your dream a few of us are just trying to be realistic, realistic meaning that we have accepted that Tom Hall will never get back the rights. It has been almost twenty years! If he has not gotten them back by now, what really makes you think he ever will?

With that now out in the open, that brings us to Ceilick's unofficial TUIT. Like you, we want to finally have an official TUIT. But unlike you, since a few of us believe it will never be created, we have accepted Ceilick's version of TUIT because we believe it is the closest to an official TUIT we will ever get! Since it has been almost twenty years since the empty promise of TUIT was made, is it really SO WRONG for the Keen community to create TUIT themselves and DARE call it canon?

Whatever medium we are talking about, whether it be comic books, novels, movies, TV series, or video games, canon is established by the original creator. In all of these mediums there exists what is called an "expanded universe". As this name suggests, this universe is created through fan-made projects that are designed with the purpose to "expand" on the original canon or to help understand events in the canon that are confusing, underdeveloped, or were never properly explained to begin with. Star Wars is an excellent example of this.
George Lucas himself has said that he has never read most of the stories in the expanded universe, nor at any point has he officially given his stamp of approval to include its stories as canon. But he hinted at or at least implied that if the Stars Wars fans wanted to, they could consider the expanded universe as canon just as long as it never contradicts the canon Lucas established with the Stars Wars movies. Many of the creators in the other mediums have taken a similiar view.

Also in all the other mediums, nothing is excluded from being considered canon just because its original creator had little or nothing to do with its creation. This does not seem to be the case in the Keen community where Keenrush as well as others vehemently oppose any Keen game being considered canon just because Tom hall did not create them. The only exception to the rule of establishing canon with projects the original creator is not involved, is when the creator directly and openly refuses to accept it as canon. Applying this to Commander Keen, Keen GBC will never be canon simply because Tom Hall rejects it.

As stated above, the expanded universe and other fan-made projects can be considered canon just as long as they do not contradict the original, established canon, are not rejected by the original creator and is accepted as a whole by its fans. What separates Commander Keen from Star Wars and other fictional mythologies, is that their communties have unanimously accepted the expanded universe as canon. But in the Keen community, since no one can agree on the distance between their ass and their elbow, no mods, levelpacks and fangames will ever be officially considered canon be Keeners as a whole.

I do not know why I got on this rant concerning canon when I have always considered canon to be crap to begin with. How can canon actually exist when it contradicts itself constantly in all mediums? Canon, if there really is such a thing, should exist in the minds of the fans. We as fans should decide for ourselves how the adventures should unfold. We should not allow other Keen fans to tell us that our vision of Commander Keen is right or wrong. Those who agree that the fan-made Keen games are non-canonical are free to do so, just as the fans of Ceilick's unofficial TUIT are free to consider it official. That is the other reason I consider Keens 7-9 as official, because they are similiar (I stress the world similiar) to my vision of what I wanted TUIT to be.

If any of you have actually read this far, I hope my post gives you some incite as to not only why some people consider Keens 7-9 to be official, but also why some in the Keen community might actually consider non-Tom Hall games to be canonical.

Patrick

DHeadshot · Post by **DHeadshot** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 23:42

StupidBunny wrote:Shouldn't Keen 0 technically fit before Keen 1?

Commander Spleen · Post by **Commander Spleen** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 0:05

DHeadshot, how can you leave out Xky's series? And the couple of mods that followed its timeline?

DHeadshot · Post by **DHeadshot** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 0:13

Commander Spleen wrote:DHeadshot, how can you leave out Xky's series? And the couple of mods that followed its timeline?

Wiki link please?

Scarlet · Post by **Scarlet** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 0:28

If you include some mods, you may as well include all other mods.

DHeadshot · Post by **DHeadshot** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 0:33

Scarlet wrote:If you include some mods, you may as well include all other mods.

If given a chronological reference for each mod, yes...

StupidBunny · Post by **StupidBunny** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 0:36

I don't think we should set in stone every mod and every fangame as being part of a single storyline, just because there will be too many contradictions and it will restrict future projects to existing storylines. I don't object to considering the TUIT mods as a storyline, but I think it would be irresponsible to say that it is now the "The Universe is Toast" and there can never be any alternate versions or overlap or whatever. Because if we canonize that, then where does it stop? Star Wars canonizes everything--hell, even the goddamn Holiday Special is considered "canon"--but I don't think it serves it well to make everything official that way. That's why I like DHeadshot's chart, since it leaves room for alternate timelines and chronology and such.

TerminILL · Post by **TerminILL** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 0:38

CK Guy wrote:edit: Damn it all the dumbest/most off-topic posts always end up as the first one on the next page argh

that's why you need TOP OF THE PAGE DANCE

Shadow Master · Post by **Shadow Master** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 0:54

DHeadshot wrote:
Commander Spleen wrote:DHeadshot, how can you leave out Xky's series? And the couple of mods that followed its timeline?
Wiki link please?

http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/Episode_X
http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/Episode_Null
http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/XkyKeen3

...

I can't believe there's people who've never heard of them before. Keen X was the first mod I ever played.

TerminILL · Post by **TerminILL** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:23

inorite, even I Xky's mods.