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Lava89
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Post by Lava89 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 18:08

GoldenRishi wrote: 2.) I have been on forums where the adminship has been abusive and authoritarian (The forum is now basically dead). In fact, I modded for that forum for a while but I had to tender my modship because the forum was run like a regime where the members where not respected, where certain members were openly discriminated against, and the lead admin routinely abused members and created a culture where his mods felt it was okay to follow suite. So I can tell you with some experience that PCKF is definitely not that.
I agree. Hence why I stated that I don't agree with this "tyrant" image of the mods, that I've been hearing about. I've also been in worse communities. One where the admin got insulting simply because me and some other members made suggestions for improvements to the site. I was not banned, but did unofficially leave and helped start another forum.

However, I do feel that pointing out what PCKF is and isn't is helpful to resolve future conflicts. The fact that we are guests on PCKF and do not share equal ownership is not a criticism of PCKF. I'm just stating how I feel the site should be interpreted and where the boundaries lie. Just like stating that a car can't fly isn't a criticism, just something to keep in mind if you want to drive over a cliff.
GoldenRishi wrote: Maybe people should have a dialogue with the mods out of what they want out of PCKF if something isn't working for them. I doubt that the mods are just going to tell everyone to pound sand.
Which is exactly why I stepped into this discussion. I feel once we lay out as to what *exactly* got Para banned, we can move onto possible solutions, for the forum as a whole and help us fellow members be more informed. Also, until the mods say something official about why he was banned, I feel the rest is speculation.

You're also right in that I could've just PM'ed any of the mods to learn what I am asking. But I want to take advantage of the fact that Flaose left this topic up for open discussion. I also felt that the thread was really going no where and would just be better for everybody to hear the official reasoning behind the decision. This also saves the mods time of writing 10 people the same thing that can just be read publically.

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Plasma Captain
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Post by Plasma Captain » Tue Oct 20, 2015 19:48

With regards to those who are saying that this forum is "run by tyrants", I am curious as to what other forums they have visited. I'll just be adding my name to the list of people who has experienced far worse.

Try forums run by young teenagers. Those are pretty great. I don't remember anybody here being banned for a slight jab. I don't remember peoples' posts being drastically altered to erase any hints of arguments or anger or anything that would reveal the farce of a saccharine utopia.

If anything, it seems like these discussions arise whenever somebody tries to stir the pot.

Bear in mind that these are the musings of a lurker.

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Post by Ceilick » Tue Oct 20, 2015 23:39

Lava89 wrote: Because I feel the off-topic thread has been one of the few solutions that has worked around here.
I agree, it is one of the best things that was ever done on this forum. It's the perfect catch all.
Lava89 wrote:what exactly, on paper, officialy got Paramultart banned?
Paramultart has been warned in the past for breaking rules 4, 5, and 6. These are why he was banned. They are:

4. Don't post sexual, racist, or otherwise obscene comments or images.

5. Don't deliberately annoy, offend, antagonize, or bully other members.

6. Don't create intentionally irrelevant posts.

While he's done this all over the board, one needn't look past his farts thread to see him breaking all three simultaneously.

I'm also 99% certain SnipSnap McGee is yet another one of his alt accounts. They've posted from the same IP address.

Doxxing has been thrown around in this thread, so lets get that issue sorted out. I've not used this word. In fact, I was unfamiliar with it until Golden Rishi brought it to my attention.

However, it is clear to me that using a person's real, full name in place of their forum name, no matter if that information is already public, is in very bad taste. When it is done in a questionable or negative manner, I consider that borderline harassment. This is a public place, anyone can search anyone's name and results from here will turn up. People who have shared their names here have done so because they feel safe. Indeed, Paramultart and myself among them. No one here should have to worry about potential real life consequences for this, for example, a potential employer doing a Google search and finding a name associated with some perversity (And that's what Paramultart's "Penis mod" is. Yes, I've seen it. I told him it would never be allowed on the forum in 2010/2011. It has never been associated with myself, certainly not my name, until this bizarre episode).
Lava89 wrote:However, I do feel that pointing out what PCKF is and isn't is helpful to resolve future conflicts. The fact that we are guests on PCKF and do not share equal ownership is not a criticism of PCKF. I'm just stating how I feel the site should be interpreted and where the boundaries lie.
It probably should be discussed. I can't claim authorship to the line regarding guests, but I've always understood the 'public' in the PCKF to be the general public, not the keen community, and not at all to indicate any kind of ownership. The forum is open to the public, anyone who follows the rules and meets the age requirement (13) is welcome. The rules are there to maintain order and respect between members and to make this place welcome to outsiders.

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Post by VikingBoyBilly » Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:19

From my perspective as his close friend, Paramultart was using the pckf as a distraction to cope with the trauma in his life recently. I won't give explicit details, but the guy has faced horrors I can say with a high degree of certainty nobody else here has had to deal with. I have to concede that the farts thread is a waste of space that didn't amuse me, but it was a thing that granted him solace in some way.

To me Paramultart was a big part of what made the PCKF what it is and he's a big asset to the modding workforce here. There are other permabanned users like Scarlet and ALMN that were unpopular, and I don't particularly like them myself, but I think there's a difference between violators like them and the spambots who have no value in every aspect. Scarlet was even working on a Becky Blaze mod. This mindset to enforce all the rules without mercy expecting perpetrators to go away or to have "learned a lesson" is for big communities with hundreds of indistinguishable strangers coming in and out. There's like, a couple dozen active members here, we're like family.

If banamultant has shown us anything, it's that banning isn't a guaranteed solution to these problems (Paramultart says it wasn't him making the fragmented posts, but I'm not sure I believe him and I don't know who'd want to frame him). It's an immature response to what happened to him, but it's a thing that can keep recurring through sheer persistence, and KP's testimony that it took half an hour to clean up shows it's not something that can just be zapped away with the press of a button.

I'm not saying problem-members should have a free reign to violate the rules, but I think some compromises need to be made here. I'm appealing to unban Paramultart on the condition that stuff like the farts thread doesn't happen again. I don't want to lose one of our best modders.
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Post by GalaxyEyesPhotonDragon » Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:09

I too say Para should be given another chance. I don't believe he truly meant any harm anywhere, and if he's going through traumatic times, that can mess with someone pretty bad. Hell I'm going through a bad state of depression, I haven't been feeling like myself or acting like myself much lately, I have therefore been abrasive, irritable and sometimes I'll say a lot of things I don't really mean, that I normally wouldn't even say, I also do a lot of things I wouldn't normally be doing. Not healthy choices either.
Now imagine what he's going through and how that would affect him, it sounds like he's got it a lot worse... these things affect us in ways a lot of us wouldn't expect.
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Post by SnipSnap_McGee » Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:58

Ceilick wrote: I'm also 99% certain SnipSnap McGee is yet another one of his alt accounts. They've posted from the same IP address.
friends talk - we also share things. sometimes we share IP addresses. we also share computers, pizza, and one time even underwear. I was am not a Keen fan before and this Snipsnap character/mod is his thing... he has made a few posts from this account but I did want to help with that snipsnap mod.
I play Pokemon. I'm a Nintendo nerd. but I am a real person, and if the administrators want me to verify that, i'm cool with it.
People are calling him a racist or accusing him of hate speech. that's ridiculous.
Ryan isn't racist. The nazi sympathizer and nationalist thing isnt an act, but in our personal conversations
he's never said anything remotely racist to me, or hinted at white supremacy or anything. (the volunteer work this guy has done helping minorities might actualy surprise you actually)
as a socialist even I can see that native europeans are getting shafted. it's not hate speech, it's called an honest conversation. there's room for debate on both sides and
and he's no more racist for opposing immigration as anyone is for supporting it. Wow. Never thought I'd say that!
As for the traumas he's experienced, I can vouch for them.

(personal info retracted.....)

you can ban me if you want cause i don't really belong here but i will stick up for my friend.
Last edited by SnipSnap_McGee on Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Plasma Captain » Wed Oct 21, 2015 14:00

VikingBoyBilly wrote:There are other permabanned users like Scarlet and ALMN
I didn't realize that Scarlet was banned. It's actually kind of weird that banned members aren't labeled thusly in their profiles/posts. Also I have no idea what happened; I assume whatever it was has been deleted.

If Para is truly going through some tough things, then that is sad, but you can't just allow people to do whatever they want to do for whatever reason they give. A mere slap on the wrist isn't really that effective because it shows the offender, and, furthermore, everyone else, that you're not really serious about upholding order.

I personally have never practiced permabanning except in cases when someone joins a community for the sole purpose of vandalizing or spamming. But a good, long ban doesn't seem out of the question in situations like this, and while I understand that people here are friends with Para, you have to understand that if actions don't have consequences, then rules don't mean anything. This is how the real world works, too.

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Post by SnipSnap_McGee » Wed Oct 21, 2015 14:50

Plasma Captain wrote: If Para is truly going through some tough things, then that is sad, but you can't just allow people to do whatever they want to do for whatever reason they give. A mere slap on the wrist isn't really that effective because it shows the offender, and, furthermore, everyone else, that you're not really serious about upholding order.
you're right, we can't let people think that it's okay to make fart jokes or accidentally use real names here.

if you don't whip out the ban hammer liberally, people might start to not take this forum seriously and there will be rioting in the streets.

even worse, people might actually have fun
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Post by MoffD » Wed Oct 21, 2015 15:29

I can't think of any constructive debate to add, I'm not one for long discussions. That being said, I personally don't think perma-banning members who actually are contributing and are part of the community (Scarlet as well as VBB) is a good idea.

I admit I don't have a better solution, and I have not been on this forum as long as most active people: However, I still feel that the permanent bans were uncalled for (and not effective due to proxies) The members who were perma-banned only stay away by their own choice.
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Post by GoldenRishi » Wed Oct 21, 2015 20:06

Plasma Captain wrote:I didn't realize that Scarlet was banned. It's actually kind of weird that banned members aren't labeled thusly in their profiles/posts. Also I have no idea what happened; I assume whatever it was has been deleted.
Yes, I do have two things to say on this:

1.) I think it is a bad thing that members names aren't listed as "banned", "mod", "global mod", "admin", etc. I'm not sure if this is just the software that PCKF runs on, and it can't be helped, but if it can be done, I think it should. I think people have a right to know (without stumbling upon the one thread that tells you) what the status of the members is.

2.) I second that I want confirmation from a mod as to whether or not Scarlett is banned and, if so, what for.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

VikingBoyBilly wrote:From my perspective as his close friend, Paramultart was using the pckf as a distraction to cope with the trauma in his life recently.
I had suspected as much, and it's unfortunate that my guess was correct. Still, when someone is acting out, giving them a break or letting their acting out scot-free is not usually a good option, neither for them nor for the community that they're a part of. Even if Para's official status is permabanned, I very much doubt that in a few months if he contacted the mods and explained his situation, and agreed to obey the rules of PCKF, I very much doubt that they would refuse him, especially given his long history on the forum.

But if the mods were allow him to return after a cooling period, his behavior would have to change and that's Para's decision.
Paramultart wrote: To me Paramultart was a big part of what made the PCKF what it is and he's a big asset to the modding workforce here. There are other permabanned users like Scarlet and ALMN that were unpopular, and I don't particularly like them myself, but I think there's a difference between violators like them and the spambots who have no value in every aspect. Scarlet was even working on a Becky Blaze mod. This mindset to enforce all the rules without mercy expecting perpetrators to go away or to have "learned a lesson" is for big communities with hundreds of indistinguishable strangers coming in and out. There's like, a couple dozen active members here, we're like family.
I will agree with you that Paramultart is a good member for PCKF, when he's behaving. But I can't say that I agree with you that the rules were enforced without mercy. I don't know, but I am almost certain that Paramultart had many PMs with PCKF moderators, and I'm pretty sure that most of those went ignored by Para.
VBB wrote:I'm appealing to unban Paramultart on the condition that stuff like the farts thread doesn't happen again. I don't want to lose one of our best modders.
I would second this, but with a some stipulations:

1.) Para needs to not be so bombastic. It's one thing to be a racist on a forum that doesn't allow you to post racist comments and go out of your way to be rude to members. It's quite another to call out members (regular member or mod) in thread to mock/irritate them, or to go on long, completely unprovoked rants about how segregation is a good thing, how whites belong only with other whites, etc. I may be argumentative, but I try (but occasionally fail) to avoid making things personal, whereas my experiences with Para in Miscellaneous (where most of his infractions occur), pretty much always he makes or tries to make things very personal --and as quickly as possible. Personally, I think he should be allowed to voice his mind, but I think that the best of all options would be to have a discussion subforum that is age-restricted/private. But that's up to the mods.

2.) I think Para needs a cool off period. Assuming that he was (and in all probability, he was) baramultart/banamultart, I think that's evidence enough that he needs time to cool his heals.

3.) Lastly, and most importantly, he needs to take responsibility for his behavior. He seems to continue with the idea that this is 100% the mods being tyrants and he was completely blameless in all of this. And that's not really acceptable if he were ever to continue being a member of PCKF, given that it's very clear that he's broken some rules.
Last edited by GoldenRishi on Wed Oct 21, 2015 20:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Nospike
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Post by Nospike » Wed Oct 21, 2015 20:22

GoldenRishi wrote:2.) I second that I want confirmation from a mod as to whether or not Scarlett is banned and, if so, what for.
It's been some time so I don't remember everything but he is most definitely banned, and IIRC it was for constantly arguing with others, including mods/admins, and being disruptive. Ceilick diagnosed him with paranoia before the ban hammer struck.
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Post by GoldenRishi » Wed Oct 21, 2015 20:28

Nospike wrote:
GoldenRishi wrote:2.) I second that I want confirmation from a mod as to whether or not Scarlett is banned and, if so, what for.
It's been some time so I don't remember everything but he is most definitely banned, and IIRC it was for constantly arguing with others, including mods/admins, and being disruptive. Ceilick diagnosed him with paranoia before the ban hammer struck.
OOOHH.

I thought VBB meant ScarletFlame.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So as long as we're asking about these things, what is PCKF's rule position on debating/arguing in the Miscellaneous forum?


Pretty much every forum I know has a discussion/debate section, where members can discuss their views (But ad hominem attacks aren't allowed). Technically, PCKF doesn't have such a forum, but historically debate/discussions have always appeared in the Miscellaneous subforum (e.g. "Is Harry Potter Bad/Satanic?" and various other discussions/debates.)

I guess I'd like to know what exactly constitutes "too argumentative," as I'd like to not cross that line.
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Post by Ceilick » Wed Oct 21, 2015 21:44

Scarlet isn't banned.  Neither is Almn.  I can't speak for Almn, but Scarlet was banned by me,  "permanently". I wasnt personally the one who unbanned him, but can guess why, and it was a good decision. 

As people point out, being permanently banned is extreme and no one wants to see it happen, including the staff.

Paramultart, as far as I can discern, doesn't think he did anything wrong.  It was all a joke, an accident, other people's problem, etc.  Warnings and temporary bans have proven to have no lasting impact on how he treats this forum.  I see an indefinite ban as the only solution.

Paramultart's ban is not a statement that he is somehow of no value as a member or was never a good presence on the forum.  It's not a statement that whatever he might be going through isn't serious or that maybe he really isn't his normal self.  It's not a ruling that no matter what he can never come back.

And indeed, if he really is going through something to the extent that he can't control himself on this forum, all the more reason for the ban to remain so he can't continue his self destruction here.

But, as anyone who has visited his new forum can see, Paramultart is perfectly able to be completely constructive and courteous to people right now.  Why he can't do that on the PCKF is a mystery to me.

@GoldenRishi I'm not sure other than common sense. I'd say going out of one's way to make someone feel like an idiot, but I'm not going to set that in stone. I'd like to think we're all mature enough to handle it, but I know we're not.

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Post by Plasma Captain » Wed Oct 21, 2015 23:35

GoldenRishi wrote:OOOHH.

I thought VBB meant ScarletFlame.
Ditto. I was really confused as to what I'd missed. It seemed really out of character.

Ditto to what others have said since my last post.

Um, I don't have anything else of worth to contribute to this discussion.
Last edited by Plasma Captain on Wed Oct 21, 2015 23:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Fleexy » Wed Oct 21, 2015 23:36

First up, I think it's important that we have this discussion, and thanks to the admin team (especially Ceilick) for talking.

I said some relevant stuff in the off-topic thread, but what it boils down to is this: it's not possible to set up specific rules for every possible thing that we don't want. Personally, I'm a big fan of the StackExchange "be nice" policy.

People change, but sometimes not very fast, and sometimes after they've died or moved on. Timed suspension is usually an effective measure, and in a place like this, one year ought to be enough. There will always be the option of alternate accounts, so we'll just have to deal with content on a case-by-case basis. (Though if there are more bursts of junk posts, I could get to work on the automated moderator.)

I think openness when it comes to administrative action is good. Maybe not to provide detailed justifications or check every action with the community (one important part of being in power is doing things that are unpopular but necessary), but just to notify interested parties of what's going on. Also, it might be a good idea to have meta section or at least a "community" thread so this stuff isn't splattered across controversial threads or lost in the off-topic thread.

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