Keen 64: Gameplay Demo

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Lava89
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Keen 64: Gameplay Demo

Post by Lava89 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:25

Here is the gameplay demo I talked about in the other thread. This is strictly the work I've done so far on the gameplay, such as controls and the camera. You will be able to shoot, move around, jump and control the camera, there are no NPCs or items to collect. The main purpose for this is to get feedback on the controls or camera so I can make changes and give the project as a whole more polish by the time I release the demo.

In this release I am including 3 different control schemes as separate executables; Classic, First Person Shooter style (FPS), and Gamepad. Below are some diagrams of the controls, which are included with the game.

The Classic is similar to the way I had the Beta set up, but instead with a different way of moving around and a self-correcting camera.

FPS is akin to the way MDK 2 or First Person Shooters are set up.

The Gamepad scheme uses the same controls as the classic controls but everything is on a controller. On the diagram I tried numbering the buttons that were on the gamepad I used to test the game.

Control Diagrams:

CLASSIC
Image

FPS
Image

GAMEPAD
Image

I am leaving the other thread open to direct non-gameplay demo feedback. So please refer all graphical and\or non-gameplay demo feedback to the "Unofficial Games" thread.

Lastly the level will more than likely be white, because I didn't bother to correct that problem from the Beta version, but by the demo it should be fixed. I don't think it will be a problem for this because I am focusing only on the gameplay. If you really want the textures to work, rename the main folder as Keen64beta and put it on your C drive, so as C:\Keen64Beta, but even then it only *might* work.

Now...to the main event:
http://files.filefront.com/Keen64Gammaz ... einfo.html

EDIT:
BUG FIXES (so far):
V 0.2
Fixed Keen from getting stuck on the cylinders
Fixed side-direction rotation limits
Toned down standard sensitivity
Added an adjustable sensitivity meter (with an updated FPS diagram)

V 0.21
Fixed level textures

V 0.3
Classic and Gamepad gameplay overhaul
Zoom limits for Gamepad and Classic verions
Vertical camera limits for FPS version
Smooth fade out for exit scene
Last edited by Lava89 on Thu May 22, 2008 15:34, edited 12 times in total.

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StupidBunny
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Post by StupidBunny » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:08

The jumping is much improved, and the character doesn't move as slowly. But Keen is rather difficult to control. I don't know why, but the turning is really confusing and kind of annoying. (This is all for classic, by the way...I don't have a controller for my computer.) This would probably be less of a problem if the camera followed behind Keen, and rotated as he did.

Look forward to the demo! :)
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Post by Roobar » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:06

Well done! I prefer FPS mode, but the mouse movement was waaay too fast!

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Post by Djaser » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:27

Iv4n wrote:Well done! I prefer FPS mode, but the mouse movement was waaay too fast!
Plus the camera moves slower than Keen making it easy to loose control control.

Also it's possible to get stuck between the cylinders blocks.

I would even concluded that you're previous demo worked better.
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Post by KeenRush » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:02

FPS way, definitely. The camera follows Keen properly, turning around is easy, and it fits into 3D world. :)

The problem with the Classic was that it was difficult to use and turning around was difficult and strange.

Looking good.
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Post by szevvy » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:39

Has a lot of potential. I see several issues, though.

1. Like most others said, the camera turns waaay too fast. Surely you noticed this yourself?
2. The camera can rotate as many revolutions as you want right, but it stops at a certain point when you try to turn left. To turn left beyond a certain point, you have to a 270 degree turn to the right. I'm sure it's easy to fix.
3. When you shoot repeatedly, it looks like he's masturbating. :)
4. I notice you have a texture for his face. I don't get to see his face, as his butt is always facing the camera. I don't want this - not least because I can see his shirt texture distorting every time he walks. I want him to face the way he was facing, so I can rotate all the way round him as I turn the camera, until I want to move. At that point, he turns ass end towards the camera and walks in the direction my camera is facing. That would solve a lot of my issues with this demo.
5. I should not, *ever*, be able to go below the ground. If I want to zoom out with the scroll wheel, fine, my camera will move up. Even then, though, I should have a very limited range of up/down movement in camera. I don't want to look through level geometry, which I am guaranteed to do if my camera is looking at the guy's feet. At this point, your axes are trashed, and moving left does the opposite of what you'd expect. If, however, I zoom in - your camera is different. You can no longer clip level geometry in the same way as the camera gets close his eyeballs. At that point, you need more range. Unless you implement that - clamp it. Especially given the madness of the camera :)
6. Jumping doesn't feel right, almost feels like you've got a fixed velocity. If it's to feel like Keen, he's gotta have very little gravity acceleration so you have time to control his jump at its peak.
7. At some point, get some real hosting - Firefox had no idea how big your file was.

It seems you're making an effort, so if you fix the problems, I am happy to look at it again, as many times as you want. If you take onboard at least some of my advice, I can test it every single day if you want.

Currently, however, it's that buggy that the problems get in the way of other feedback.

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Post by Lava89 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 18:03

Thanks guys! :)

There is a new updated version (V. 0.2), so when I refer to "the latest update" I mean 0.2. I also edited my original post at the end and put the latest bug fixes and will continue to do so with this Gameplay Demo.
StupidBunny wrote:The jumping is much improved, and the character doesn't move as slowly. But Keen is rather difficult to control. I don't know why, but the turning is really confusing and kind of annoying. (This is all for classic, by the way...I don't have a controller for my computer.) This would probably be less of a problem if the camera followed behind Keen, and rotated as he did.

Look forward to the demo! :)
Ah ok, thanks...I think I'll have to really reconceptualize those controls (same with the Gamepad version). I want the game to appeal to 3 different types of gamers, people with game pads, people who want an automatic camera and those use to a mouse controlled camera. Until I redesign the Classic and Gamepad modes, I will be focusing alot my attention on the FPS mode, but their updates will come eventually. I know what it was like having to get used to games that used a mouse for the camera, and even though it's not problem for me now, I still don't want to leave those gamers out.
Iv4n wrote:Well done! I prefer FPS mode, but the mouse movement was waaay too fast!
I brought down the sensitivity but I also added the ability to adjust the sensitivity, because everyone is different in how they play. If the maximum limit is too slow, please let me know and I'll try to expand it.

If you guys tell me what sensitivity is your favorite setting (based on the meter on the top), I'll take the average and make that the standard sensitivity in the future versions.

But if 10 is too slow I'll expand it, and then take the average out of the updated range.
Djaser wrote: Plus the camera moves slower than Keen making it easy to loose control control.
In the latest update I fixed the sensitivity, that should fix losing control, if not, please tell me. I want to differentiate between a problem with Keen's speed and a problem with the mouse sensitivity, if the sensitivity is not a problem but you still lose control, then it's a problem with his speed.
Djaser wrote: Also it's possible to get stuck between the cylinders blocks.
That's been a problem since the beta, but it should be fixed now.
Djaser wrote: I would even concluded that you're previous demo worked better.
You didn't even like the new jump system over the beta's? lol either way, it doesn't surprise me, I am working out new controls that are really buggy right now, but it's still a step forward. :)
szevvy wrote: 1. Like most others said, the camera turns waaay too fast. Surely you noticed this yourself?
I considered it, but I didn't not actually *experience* a problem, that is due to always using high sensitivity settings on first person shooters, lol.
szevvy wrote: 2. The camera can rotate as many revolutions as you want right, but it stops at a certain point when you try to turn left. To turn left beyond a certain point, you have to a 270 degree turn to the right. I'm sure it's easy to fix.
Fixed :)
szevvy wrote: 4. I notice you have a texture for his face. I don't get to see his face, as his butt is always facing the camera. I don't want this - not least because I can see his shirt texture distorting every time he walks. I want him to face the way he was facing, so I can rotate all the way round him as I turn the camera, until I want to move. At that point, he turns ass end towards the camera and walks in the direction my camera is facing. That would solve a lot of my issues with this demo.
I'm a little confused, you *don't* want the camera to follow him? If you want I can always add a button you can press so moving the mouse goes 360 around Keen himself, then pressing another one will go back to just turning Keen, do you want me to add something like that?
szevvy wrote: 5. I should not, *ever*, be able to go below the ground. If I want to zoom out with the scroll wheel, fine, my camera will move up. Even then, though, I should have a very limited range of up/down movement in camera. I don't want to look through level geometry, which I am guaranteed to do if my camera is looking at the guy's feet. At this point, your axes are trashed, and moving left does the opposite of what you'd expect. If, however, I zoom in - your camera is different. You can no longer clip level geometry in the same way as the camera gets close his eyeballs. At that point, you need more range. Unless you implement that - clamp it. Especially given the madness of the camera :)
From what I understand, you're saying there should be a limit of how much the camera rotates vertically? If so, I'll fix this in the next update. This last update was just to fix some the problems that prohibit gameplay the most.
szevvy wrote: 6. Jumping doesn't feel right, almost feels like you've got a fixed velocity. If it's to feel like Keen, he's gotta have very little gravity acceleration so you have time to control his jump at its peak.
It's not a fixed velocity, I assure you. It just must be my parameters. Are you saying his gravity should be faster?
szevvy wrote: 3. When you shoot repeatedly, it looks like he's masturbating. :)
This isn't related to gameplay, and I don't see a connection :P BUT-- did anyone else notice this???
szevvy wrote: 7. At some point, get some real hosting - Firefox had no idea how big your file was.
Again, nothing to do with gameplay, but I switched sites and it seems to not have the problem you were experiencing ( which I had as well, but until you mentioned it, I didn't consider it a big deal ), so it will do for now.

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Post by Genius314 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 21:12

The controls are way to hard to use. I think the problem (at least with classic mode) is that the controls work relative to which way Keen is facing. It should be relative to the camera.
For instance, if you press down, Keen turns around where he is. If you press it again, he turns around again. It's kinda confusing. Pressing down should make Keen walk towards the camera, no matter what direction he's facing.

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Post by szevvy » Wed Jan 16, 2008 23:33

Lava89 wrote: I'm a little confused, you *don't* want the camera to follow him? If you want I can always add a button you can press so moving the mouse goes 360 around Keen himself, then pressing another one will go back to just turning Keen, do you want me to add something like that?
Nope. FPS mode does not use an FPS camera, so I'd expect it to work more like, say, 3D Mario games. It could be sort of 3rd-person camera I'm used to, though - however, a lot of 3rd person games seem to work this way.
Lava89 wrote: From what I understand, you're saying there should be a limit of how much the camera rotates vertically? If so, I'll fix this in the next update. This last update was just to fix some the problems that prohibit gameplay the most.
Precisely.
Lava89 wrote: It's not a fixed velocity, I assure you. It just must be my parameters. Are you saying his gravity should be faster?
Slower. However, I'll retest the new version when I get home, and see how it works with better controls, maybe it's OK.

Lava89 wrote: This isn't related to gameplay, and I don't see a connection :P BUT-- did anyone else notice this???
I can keep strictly to what you want tested as opposed to other things I notice if you like. :)

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Post by Lava89 » Thu Jan 17, 2008 0:09

Genius314 wrote:The controls are way to hard to use. I think the problem (at least with classic mode) is that the controls work relative to which way Keen is facing. It should be relative to the camera.
For instance, if you press down, Keen turns around where he is. If you press it again, he turns around again. It's kinda confusing. Pressing down should make Keen walk towards the camera, no matter what direction he's facing.
Thanks for the advice. :)

The Classic and Gamepad versions can be navigated through, but you have to wait for the camera to update (an idea I actually adapted from Mario 64), which can be a little tedious. I have a new idea though that hopefully will make those controls intuitive.
szevvy wrote: Nope. FPS mode does not use an FPS camera, so I'd expect it to work more like, say, 3D Mario games. It could be sort of 3rd-person camera I'm used to, though - however, a lot of 3rd person games seem to work this way.
Actually the *camera* was based on the game MDK 2. I use the term "FPS" because it's most like a first-person shooter in the sense that the camera is controlled with a mouse and it uses WASD as it's directional keys.

If you're looking for a Mario-esque camera, the Classic and Gamepad versions were more made for that. Hopefully I can get those to work.
szevvy wrote: Slower. However, I'll retest the new version when I get home, and see how it works with better controls, maybe it's OK.
Ok, thank you :)
szevvy wrote: I can keep strictly to what you want tested as opposed to other things I notice if you like. :)
It's not that, I just wanted to keep this *thread* open for gameplay and camera issues. I haven't changed the animations for Keen since the Beta, so if you played the Beta you'd find the same problem, which is why I wanted to focus on the new parts of the gameplay demo.

If anyone noticed what szevvy noticed I'm alright with it being said on this thread, being that the topic has already been opened up.

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Post by szevvy » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:05

Classic is closer, but no cigar. If I could
a) move the camera with the mouse
b) have Keen move relative to the camera

it'd be perfect. He currently moves relative to the where the camera should be, not where it is.

It's different from what you have now: the camera would move around keen, W moves away from the camera, whatever angle it's at, A moves 90 degrees left and the camera slowly moves (at the speed you have now) behind him, etc.

But, as always, it's your call.

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Post by Lava89 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:27

Thanks szevvy!

Yeah, I have a new concept of controlling Keen, and I have most of it done, I just can't get the turning to the way I want it.

Has anyone else played the latest update? If so how does it fare? And what is your favorite sensitivity setting?

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Post by Lava89 » Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:38

Even though I am not officially back to working on Keen 64, I did find what may be a fix for the level textures. I also realize I said in the past that I am not focusing on graphics for the gameplay demo, this is an exception since this *is* a major, major problem that plagued the game since the Beta, so I want to make sure the textures will work for the final demo when I release it.

I also said that the next update will feature a redesigned control system for the gamepad and classic versions but since the game is still technically on "hiatus" and I wasn't expecting to find a fix for the textures so soon, those control updates will be in version 0.3 (which will more than likely be the next update, if nothing comes up).

So everyone, if you play this new update, *please* tell me if the textures are working. If the textures worked when you downloaded version 0.1 or 0.2 please move Keen 64 Beta's folder from where it is now, at least so you can test it for version 0.21, that's the way to tell if the textures work.

I tested the level, by moving the beta's folder (where the program gets the files to load the textures, it's an odd thing about the map editor I used), and the textures worked, so it should work with you guys but I could be wrong.

I updated the link to the file in the original post. :)

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Post by jimmyjames » Sun Feb 03, 2008 15:35

I have tested it and it was the first time I seen textures blanketing the level!
I tried it just on my desktop and it worked like a charm. :)

PS Keen is in dire need of a jumping animation, although I know it is not top priority.
Forget it.

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Post by XkyRauh » Sun Feb 03, 2008 18:19

Wow, the 3d arrangement of everything looks pretty neat! I just have such a phobia of the camera getting near/clipping through polygons, I'm pretty paralyzed when I play this. :) I felt like it was really difficult to move in striaght lines, using CLASSIC.exe, but I thought it was awesome to zoom out a tad and pretend it was a 3d version of the 2d games... except the controls made it hard to do much. :)

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