Thanks everyone for playing!
NY00123 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 17:12
I do have a few minor bug reports for Defense Tunnel Ahm:
Nice catches, thanks! Fixed to the extent possible in my local copy.
Roobar wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 15:09
Perhaps I'll be pointing the obvious: at certain point you know when a level is randomly generated. Once you know it, you know it. That certain point is quite early. Even though all levels look completely random, some designs begin to re-apper. The overall structure of the levels as well. Obviously at some places you tried to break the design with some more unique places or puzzles. But what especially bothered me is that you intentionally left most of the pick up items as randomly placed. If you have placed them in more common structures, it would have been more convincing that this was not that randomly generated and more keen-ish level pack.
Indeed, the way Markeen works assumes all tile adjacencies each have one particular chance of appearing together and that all the original levels are samples from the resulting distribution. The output then becomes a slurry of all original structures. In reality, different levels have different structures/themes; it really should be more like a mixture model where different level types have different ideas. That said, some of the sameness might also have come from my decoration attempts. I'm not very good at aesthetics yet, so I might have made the environments look even more monotonous than they are.
I agree that the points give away the randomly generated nature of the levels; this was intentional in order to give Markeen the spotlight. If I was trying to make a more classic level pack, I would definitely get the points more under control.
Roobar wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 15:09
As for the levels, there was one big one that was probably the most confusing one I've played. I've bested it, but there were so many secret places or places that you didn't even had to go, that at one point I was like "ok whatever, I just want to beat the level asap".
I suspect you're talking about the Security Accounts Manager, though this description might fit multiple levels in the pack.
I definitely think that SAM should have been cut down and I'll do that if/when I update the pack.
Nisaba wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:32
this place is huge and a really is a confusing level, especially when your task is to lure those bombs to the right place. I mean, you have to have a decent mental map of this level to reach your goal. It might look like knew what I was doing in the recording, but actually I was proceeding more in a manner of trail and error... IMO the optional path consumes to much space. though I have to admit that I like the strategy of having multiple options to reach the final goal. what could be done better? mmm... maybe have like two sections. the first task could be to find and open a certain door. behind that door there is a bigger space with a number of areas where you could collect a bomb or two to blow this place. like as if you would separate two sections. I mean, those mines right in the middle of the level will take ages to navigate towards the main target, given that you don't get lost along the way. again, we as level designers know the whole map and can connect things the player just can't.
That's a great idea about dividing two sections! That way the player can safely stop thinking about the first half, which should make it less overwhelming. I remember playing the Myst games, coming upon large regions accessible all at once, and thinking "oh no, I hope these places aren't interdependent!" I should have thought of that when routing this level.
Gridlock wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:48
They evoke a strange feeling, as though exploring a psychedelic Keen 5 dreamscape. That said, I didn't find many of the levels to actually be very compelling, as the sprawling designs tended to blend together. The one level that did stand out to me was Setup Bootstrapper. I'm not sure that its level design was really all that different, but the space aesthetic gave it a unique feel from the others and the generic Keen 5 aesthetic.
It was one of very few levels to include switchable bridges and had even more border accessible than the average level, but I think it was at least as much an indistinct sprawl as the other fuse machine levels.
Here's a map without background, for reference. I'm glad I got one aesthetic hit!
Gridlock wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:48
I find the biggest thing lacking in this iteration of random generation is interesting macro level structures. I like playing and designing levels with distinct concepts and architectural ideas. As of now, this type of random generation kind of just creates noise that seems hard to stitch together into a more interesting form. Though, it makes me wonder if you could program Markeen to adopt more advanced level design forms based on methodologies employed by different level designers.
At the moment Markeen just sees tile IDs in two-dimensional arrays; it doesn't have any idea of graphics or even tile properties. Making it understand visual patterns is far beyond my skills currently, but conceivably it could be programmed to first pick a skeleton based on tile properties and try to stay near that structure when picking specific tiles. I'm not sure how feasible it is to automatically learn level design forms from a small sample size, but it would likely be possible to accept a skeleton as input, or maybe even accept some simple skeleton design rules.
Gridlock wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:48
A few other notes:
- I ran into what is probably a bug in the second to last level. After returning through a door I had previously entered, I was teleported to Korath Station (presumably because of a bad infoplane value) and was able to skip the rest of the level
Hmm, all the door tiles are covered with an infoplane value (checked both manually and with the Level Inspector), so I suspect you may have encountered
this Ampton/pole bug.
Gridlock wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:48
- The opening of York Slipes with the slicestar moving across the slopes was pretty neat. Seems like another idea that'd be fun to explore more
I'm glad you like it - I might have been inspired to add that slicestar by one of the defense tunnels in the Alphamatic.
NY00123 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:57
I wonder if it's on purpose in level 8, that Keen's internal objects array gets full around the time of entering the level, if you play on hard difficulty. This leads to cannons not shooting when they're expected to, and the same also holds to Keen's stunner. This situation seemed to become less severe further in the map, probably after collecting items which were spawned as objects.
Hmm, that probably wasn't intentional, but I likely considered it acceptable (though I don't remember for sure as it's been at least a year). Regardless, Keen's stunner not working is in retrospect weird, so this is fixed now.
NY00123 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:57
I did notice the use of more than one set of blocking tiles in the same map. Only one set is used in each of Keen 5's levels, with one known exception. This might not be the first level pack to repeatedly make use of more than one set in a single level, but it does seem to be based on Markeen's work again.
Right, Markeen only looks at tiles a short distance (5 in this case) away from the one it's currently focused on, and allows more flexibility the further out it looks, so it was unable to learn that a level usually only uses one type of solid platform. It often finishes one chunk of platform, adds a bunch of air, then decides to start another platform. That's usually far enough away from the first platform to have zero correlation with the set it already used. It also occasionally paints itself into a corner with clashing platform sets, which usually makes a mess or at least requires an unusual seam like in Routing & Remote Access.
NY00123 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:57
As already reported, there were multiple instances of map clipping bugs. I have various screenshots that I can send if anyone wants them, but I suspect that something like F10+Y will be the best way to locate the errors. I've even spotted another one, new to me, in the first level. The latter one is also another instance in which Keen may get stuck above the viewable area.
If you already have the screenshots I'd be happy to see them. I went through and fixed several more problems, possibly including the one you found in the first level, but possibly there's a glitch type/pattern I don't know about. I've been using Abiathar's Tile Properties overlay, which was extremely helpful (self-promotion ahoy), but Markeen created
a lot of these glitches and I might need an automated check to find climbing-related issues.