KeenWiki: Unresolved issues and missing downloads

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KeenWiki: Unresolved issues and missing downloads

Post by Quillax »

Throughout the last several years, users on KeenWiki had many questions, debates, and discussions on the talk pages. Many of them were resolved, but there's also a lot that weren't. Once a talk page is no longer listed in the "Recent changes" list, it may go unnoticed for a long time, and it doesn't help that there's very few active users on KeenWiki. There's also been a few broken and outdated download links that can go unresolved for months (or years), since only a few of the admins are able to work with the FTP server. Because of all that, and the fact that this forum has way more active users and its structure makes things more noticeable and easier to find, I've decided to create this thread.

Shown below is an actively updated general list of unresolved issues (ordered by when they started, from oldest to newest), along with a specialized list of missing/outdated download links (with the latest non-KeenWiki downloads linked):

UNRESOLVED ISSUES/QUESTIONS: MISSING/OUTDATED DOWNLOADS: Once an issue has been resolved, it'll be removed from its respective list. If there's anything missing in the lists above, then please let us know! I encourage you all to look into the issues listed and offering input if possible (whether in the talk page/discussion linked or in this thread). And to the admins who have FTP access, it'd be great to see those missing downloads uploaded! :)
Last edited by Quillax on Thu Jun 27, 2024 20:22, edited 21 times in total.
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Re: KeenWiki: Unresolved issues and missing downloads

Post by Pandakeen »

Oh hey, wasn't expecting this thread to be made so quickly. :thumbsup

Split the page? (Doomship Dilemma) - 28 June 2014 (i bumped it a few times but no consensus was reached)
This page really needs to be split into 3 seperate pages. Each version is very different. I'll do it as soon as there's a consensus on how it should be handled.

Should Dopefish cameos have their own seperate page? - 7 June 2023
I think the Dopefish references probably should still have their own page, just due to the sheer number of them (one source said there were over 70 games with Dopefish cameos).

[i could've sworn there were both a PCKF thread and a KeenWiki talk page for this but i cant find either] How to handle source code mods on KeenWiki.

Keen modding from source code is a bit of a weird thing. Stuff like Return to the Shadowlands and Atroxian Realm started life as Keen 4 mods, and are listed as such. They're derived from reverse engineered Keen 4 code, so it makes sense. But what if someone were to make a mod with completely new enemy behaviors, not based on Keens 4-6?

I think RttS and AR should still be listed as Keen 4 mods. Not because they started life using CK4PATCH, but because they're obviously derived from Keen 4. It'd be the same if they used K1n9_Duk3's recreated Keen 4 source code from the start. Where it gets complicated is for those cases where they're not modding any episode in particular. This still needs a bit more discussion.
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Re: KeenWiki: Unresolved issues and missing downloads

Post by Pandakeen »

The spammer who hacked Bubzrulz's account is having a normal one on KeenWiki. I thought that account was banned there?
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Re: KeenWiki: Unresolved issues and missing downloads

Post by Nisaba »

Quick info: The packages for the following mods have been uploaded to our wiki servers and are now publicly available.
  • Back to Fribbulus Xax by Alopex
  • DarkAle's New Keen 5 Levelpack by DarkAle
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Re: KeenWiki: Unresolved issues and missing downloads

Post by Quillax »

Well, looks like this got buried for a while (thanks for bringing it back up, Nisaba!). I'll admit that I could've done a better job at maintaining the original post. I just updated the lists and will soon get back to Pandakeen and Nisaba, once I list what issues have been resolved (and thus removed from the list):
  • Status of Project Shadowlands - All that's left of this fangame is some videos; it appears to be in a very early stage of development and doesn't even have a playable demo. Nisaba and I feel that the KeenWiki article goes against the guidelines because of this, so I deleted the page (along with its screenshot and talk page).
  • Doom mod by StupidBunny - Pandakeen created a page for the mod, although it definitely needs more info.
  • Does Mopsy work? - I figured out how it get it working thanks to a post DaVince made in the 2009 PCKF discussion! I created a page for the game, where the solution is explained in greater detail, along with an alternate solution I discovered myself. Though, I wonder if the codes for the doors were ever posted, or if they could be unearthed through reverse engineering (if the extra levels are actually included in the shareware version). Also, it'd be great if someone fluent in German could update the story section by translating the story provided in the game (I don't know if I can trust Google Translate to do the job well).
Also, I added a bunch of unresolved issues that were previously unlisted (including the two Pandakeen posted). I left a response in Should we delete/blank Mortimer McMire - The Armageddon Machine? and Proof that JumpJet Rex has a Keen reference?. I sometimes wonder if some of the issues listed would be better discussed in dedicated PCKF discussions rather than KeenWiki talk pages. There's like only a few active users on KeenWiki.
Pandakeen wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 18:25 [i could've sworn there were both a PCKF thread and a KeenWiki talk page for this but i cant find either] How to handle source code mods on KeenWiki.

Keen modding from source code is a bit of a weird thing. Stuff like Return to the Shadowlands and Atroxian Realm started life as Keen 4 mods, and are listed as such. They're derived from reverse engineered Keen 4 code, so it makes sense. But what if someone were to make a mod with completely new enemy behaviors, not based on Keens 4-6?

I think RttS and AR should still be listed as Keen 4 mods. Not because they started life using CK4PATCH, but because they're obviously derived from Keen 4. It'd be the same if they used K1n9_Duk3's recreated Keen 4 source code from the start. Where it gets complicated is for those cases where they're not modding any episode in particular. This still needs a bit more discussion.
Yeah, we did have a PCKF discussion and KeenWiki talk page about this. Source code modding is something that's being handled a bit weirdly on KeenWiki I feel (there's a page for CKSRCMOD, but not much mention of K1n9_Duk3's recreated source codes, which probably could be mentioned in the Galaxy versions and tools pages). I created a category for source code mods so they could have some sort of dedicated list. So far, each of the source codes are specific to one episode, aside from CKSRCMOD, but that is so barren and stripped-down that I don't know if anyone would ever want to start from there (especially now that we have K1n9_Duk3's source codes).
Pandakeen wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 16:16 The spammer who hacked Bubzrulz's account is having a normal one on KeenWiki. I thought that account was banned there?
Yeah, I initially banned the account for a few days, hoping the spambot would be deterred. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case, so I gave it a permanent ban. Seems like Bubzrulz stored his passwords in a not-so-secure place. (By the way, I laughed at the edit you made to the page you linked; that's a good one! :lol)
Nisaba wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2023 7:49 Quick info: The packages for the following mods have been uploaded to our wiki servers and are now publicly available.
  • Back to Fribbulus Xax by Alopex
  • DarkAle's New Keen 5 Levelpack by DarkAle
I'm so glad to see that! :) I removed those mods from the missing downloads list in the original post, although I just added a new fangame.
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Re: KeenWiki: Unresolved issues and missing downloads

Post by Nisaba »

KeenWiki upload/mirror report:
  • Captain Rixot: Lost on Enceladus by ktch0 (fangame) --> done!
  • CKGBA (fangame) --> done!
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Re: KeenWiki: Unresolved issues and missing downloads

Post by Quillax »

Woo-hoo! Thanks for your help, Nisaba! Those two games are removed from the list. :)

By looking through the Flash Keen homepage on Wayback Machine, I was able to find a link to the .swf file, which is now listed in the original post. We might have to tell the reader that they would have to use something like Ruffle or Newgrounds Flash Player (although I'm not very familiar with that stuff), perhaps in the Flash Keen article when that gets created. Interestingly, when I clicked to play the game on the homepage, Wayback Machine tried to load it with Ruffle, but it threw an error message about missing/invalid files. Also, I added a few more missing downloads that I previously forgot to add.

By the way, Nisaba (and any other KeenWiki admins with FTP access reading this), could you please look into the 16-year-old unresolved issue that I just added and left a reply in: https://keenwiki.shikadi.net/wiki/Talk:ShadowKeen2 (I also made a reply in Should an article be made for Dopefish Lives!?, in hopes that I could get a response from someone else to get another opinion.)
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Re: KeenWiki: Unresolved issues and missing downloads

Post by Nisaba »

Quillax wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 7:51 By the way, Nisaba (and any other KeenWiki admins with FTP access reading this), could you please look into the 16-year-old unresolved issue that I just added and left a reply in: https://keenwiki.shikadi.net/wiki/Talk:ShadowKeen2 (I also made a reply in Should an article be made for Dopefish Lives!?, in hopes that I could get a response from someone else to get another opinion.)
To have some sort of a wiki notification feature would be neat. Most of the time I seem to miss the ongoing discussions / talk sections ...so, thanks for bringing them up here
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Re: KeenWiki: Unresolved issues and missing downloads

Post by Quillax »

You're welcome, Nisaba! :) Yeah, that's pretty much the reason why I created this thread; even I tend to forget about some of the talk pages.

Anyway, I'd like to give a quick update on what issues have been resolved/removed:
  • Should we delete/blank Mortimer McMire - The Armageddon Machine? - It seems that this issue will never be resolved as long as we don't come to a solid conclusion for our stance on player-only graphical mods. For now, the page will be left as it is (basically divorced from any of the mod lists and with all images deleted). If you have something to say about graphics-only mods, feel free to bring it up in the respective PCKF discussion. If that issue can finally be resolved, then we'll either revive or delete this page (depending on the result).
  • Should an article be made for Dopefish Lives!? - Nisaba and I believe that Dopefish Lives! and Dopefish Forever! should be merged, since they're mostly the same, so I did that.
  • Level count (Simulator Keen) - The level count remains as it is (99 in the infobox, infinite in the Vorticon Mods page); a note was added to the "Levels" and "Technical Information" sections to clarify that only 10 levels are loaded at a time.
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Re: KeenWiki: Unresolved issues and missing downloads

Post by Pandakeen »

Just got back on my computer after being away for a week (I don't like logging into sites from my phone). Let's see if I can remember everything I wanted to say.
Is it possible to have a mod appear in more than one screenshot list? I think there should be a "Source code mods" list, and Atroxian Realm for example could appear in both "Keen 4 mods" and "Source code mods".
Also, Netkeen should be considered a source code mod. Technically Netkeen is still a fangame, but I think that's a bit confusing. Fangames around here seem to mean, more or less, "an unofficial Keen game that isn't derived from code from the original games, be it patching, reverse-engineering or source code", so it probably wouldn't hurt to drop the fangame label.
---
Regarding the issue of notability on KeenWiki (skin mods, demos/betas, etc): I think while there should be some notability guidelines, it's mainly a problem because KeenWiki is trying to fill two niches at once: An info resource and a download resource. There should still be a place where you can put stuff that doesn't need an article but is still worth keeping online, and there isn't one at the moment.
Beyond the Pogo was perfect for this. I think the best solution to this problem would be to start a spiritual successor to this (and share the name as well, because it works). I'll have to start a new thread about this idea sometime soon, because I have a lot of ideas regarding this, well outside the scope of this thread.
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Re: KeenWiki: Unresolved issues and missing downloads

Post by Quillax »

Alright, I've got quite a lot to say, so I'll divide it into sections:

NEW ISSUES
I added Merge [Therealdopefish's 1st Levelpack] with Therealdopefish's 2nd Levelpack? to the list. Personally, I feel like the 2nd levelpack is sort of an update to the 1st one, since the former retains all the levels from the latter (albeit they're numbered differently) in addition to new levels. It's worth mentioning that on CC314's fan-made levels page, both levelpacks are treated as one rather than split (therealdopefish is referred as "Dopefish", also seen in the fangames page). The only thing the 1st levelpack has that the 2nd doesn't is a slightly modified world map, but it's so barely changed that I feel it doesn't really matter. (I said that the 1st levelpack has a broken title screen, but that's only because there's no LEVEL90.CK1 included and I somehow decided to load the levelpack without copy-and-pasting the aforementioned file from the original Keen 1. :crazy)

NEW MISSING DOWNLOADS
I added Keen Is At It Again! and Prelude to the list, with their respective download links. Also, I replaced the Flash Keen .swf link with a link to the Internet Archive page, which has download links for the all the files needed to play (look at the right, there's a couple by "SHOW ALL"). Just having the .swf file wouldn't be enough since Flash Keen requires .dat files that serve as the levels. This may be why Ruffle couldn't load Flash Keen in the Wayback Machine. I've added an alternate link for Flash Keen in the fangames page, which links to the game on Flashpoint's server; this is for those who don't want to install or download anything.

OTHER
shikadi changed the level count in the Simulator Keen page from 99 to 10, saying that "10 levels are generated. Stating 99 makes no sense." Since he's the author of the mod, should we accordingly change the level count on the Vorticon Mods page (and rewrite a couple notes about the levels in the mod's page)?
Pandakeen wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 16:05 Is it possible to have a mod appear in more than one screenshot list? I think there should be a "Source code mods" list, and Atroxian Realm for example could appear in both "Keen 4 mods" and "Source code mods".
I'm sure that's possible, although it might require a little bit of mangling with the code behind the mod infobox and mod lists. I'm not so sure if a "Source code mods" list would be necessary, though, unless people were to use a new Keen source code that isn't tied to a specific game. Right now, a source code mod can be very different from the original games, but it still starts with the source code for a certain game, much like how a patched mod can have little in common with its base game. (Again, there's Lemm's CKSRCMOD, but it's like a stripped down Keen 4.)

At the same time, however...
Pandakeen wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 16:05 Also, Netkeen should be considered a source code mod. Technically Netkeen is still a fangame, but I think that's a bit confusing. Fangames around here seem to mean, more or less, "an unofficial Keen game that isn't derived from code from the original games, be it patching, reverse-engineering or source code", so it probably wouldn't hurt to drop the fangame label.
You make some really good points here. I can see how NetKeen could be considered a source code mod; I wonder what do other people think of that. It could be considered a Keen 5 mod, since episode 5 is the default and appears to be the base (e.g. I believe all characters do that "surfing" pose when standing on a Goplat, regardless of the episode), but that might be weird when graphics and music from other episodes are used.

However, I think we should draw a line somewhere because if NetKeen gets labelled a mod, then what about "fangames" that are ports of the official games to different platforms? CKGBA, for instance, is built off of the reconstructed Keen 4 source code, so is it a Keen 4 mod? In that case, I'm starting to wonder if there should be a dedicated list of ports; it could be useful for those who want to play Keen in other platforms (this hypothetical list would include Commander Genius, that Keen 4 port to Tandy, and maybe even the CGA composite mods).
Pandakeen wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 16:05 Regarding the issue of notability on KeenWiki (skin mods, demos/betas, etc): I think while there should be some notability guidelines, it's mainly a problem because KeenWiki is trying to fill two niches at once: An info resource and a download resource. There should still be a place where you can put stuff that doesn't need an article but is still worth keeping online, and there isn't one at the moment.
Beyond the Pogo was perfect for this. I think the best solution to this problem would be to start a spiritual successor to this (and share the name as well, because it works). I'll have to start a new thread about this idea sometime soon, because I have a lot of ideas regarding this, well outside the scope of this thread.
Great points! Looking back, I don't think I've ever put enough deep thought in what KeenWiki is trying to do. I was mainly focused on mods and fangames, creating pages for them and making sure such pages have enough info to be helpful and informative. KeenWiki might not need an article for every skin mod, but there could a page that lists all of the skin mods, kinda like what Benvolio once suggested. However, a spiritual successor to Beyond the Pogo might work. It would give things like demos a place, as well as stuff that might not have a place on KeenWiki such as screensavers, films (there's an article for the Shadowlands animated series, but nothing else), desktop themes, fanart, etc. Plus, people could leave comments and reviews for a download, which is something that you can't really do on KeenWiki aside from a bare star rating system that I'm not sure if people even notice. I'd love to see your ideas! :)

EDIT: Just gonna ping Nisaba to remind her of the missing downloads:
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Re: KeenWiki: Unresolved issues and missing downloads

Post by Nisaba »

Quillax wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:46 EDIT: Just gonna ping Nisaba to remind her of the missing downloads:
thanks for the reminder.
I uploaded Flash Keen to our server. Unless I missed something, that was the only thing to upload at the moment, right?
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Re: KeenWiki: Unresolved issues and missing downloads

Post by Quillax »

Nisaba wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 23:33 I uploaded Flash Keen to our server. Unless I missed something, that was the only thing to upload at the moment, right?
Sweet! Thanks, Nisaba! In the Flash Keen .zip file you uploaded, I'm not sure if the first 6 files (i.e. anything that's not a .swf or .dat) are really needed to play the game or if they're just added in for Internet Archive's needs and purposes. I can't tell at the moment, though; I downloaded Ruffle for Windows 32-bit, but it doesn't work. Nothing happens if I double-click on it, and when I tried it running with the .swf file on Command Prompt, it tells me that "Ruffle does not support OpenGL on Windows". Yet, I can run Flash Keen with Flashpoint on a browser just fine...

Also, there are other .zips to upload; check the missing downloads list (now updated to remove Flash Keen) in the original post. The skin mods may be debatable, but the rest should get added.
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Re: KeenWiki: Unresolved issues and missing downloads

Post by Nisaba »

thanks for the updated list.
I just took care of the following files:
- Keen Is At It Again!
- Prelude
- Keen 4 Composite CGA Edition
- Keen 5 Composite CGA Edition
- Cosmic Oblivion

Cosmic Oblivion doesn't appear in the fangame list. But it is considered a fangame, isn't it? what is this "other" category suppose to mean, anyway?
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Re: KeenWiki: Unresolved issues and missing downloads

Post by Quillax »

Nisaba wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2023 1:22 thanks for the updated list.
I just took care of the following files:
- Keen Is At It Again!
- Prelude
- Keen 4 Composite CGA Edition
- Keen 5 Composite CGA Edition
- Cosmic Oblivion

Cosmic Oblivion doesn't appear in the fangame list. But it is considered a fangame, isn't it? what is this "other" category suppose to mean, anyway?
Thanks, Nisaba! :D

The "other" category you're talking about is for mods of non-Keen games that have a Keen flavor to them. There used to be a table for "other" mods (which includes Keen Dreams mods).

By the way, I just updated the list of downloads again, so it'd be nice if you could please look at that and take care of the missing/outdated downloads! :) A few notes to list:
  • CKGBA now includes Keen 5 and Keen 6,but they're in seperate .GBA files. I'm not sure if they should be separated into one article/download per episode (they could be called CK4GBA, CK5GBA, and CK6GBA). I mean, they're all packaged together, but are also just about completely different games. I don't know how much there would be to write for each episode, though, nor how much of it would be redundant (haven't played the GBA ports yet). <-- done ✓ (Nisaba edit)
  • For the CGA composite Keen mods, you named the .zip files with the prefix "l", even though they don't change the levels. I think it should be changed to an "m", just like all the other skin mods. <-- done ✓ (Nisaba edit)
  • The Dopefish Rescue games (fangames) got their downloads mixed up. Right now, each game has the correct download, but the latter has the wrong name. For reference, the original Dopefish Rescue's download should have a file called "DfshResQ.bas" and is v1.1, while Dopefish Rescue II's should have a file named "dfsresq2.bas" and is v1.0. <-- not exactly sure what you mean (Nisaba edit)
Also, when you updated the Foray in the Forest page, I thought you would keep it as a Keen 4 mod, but instead you changed it to a "Keen Source Code" mod. That surprised me; was it because of how much it added and changed? Then again, source code modding is at a rather gray area; NetKeen and CKGBA are also based on reverse-engineered code, and yet they're classified as fangames rather than mods. I wonder what does Malvineous think about this. Should this be taken to its own PCKF thread?
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