Alright, I've got quite a lot to say, so I'll divide it into sections:
NEW ISSUES
I added
Merge [Therealdopefish's 1st Levelpack] with Therealdopefish's 2nd Levelpack? to the list. Personally, I feel like the 2nd levelpack is sort of an update to the 1st one, since the former retains all the levels from the latter (albeit they're numbered differently) in addition to new levels. It's worth mentioning that on CC314's
fan-made levels page, both levelpacks are treated as one rather than split (therealdopefish is referred as "Dopefish", also seen in the
fangames page). The only thing the 1st levelpack has that the 2nd doesn't is a slightly modified world map, but it's so barely changed that I feel it doesn't really matter. (I said that the 1st levelpack has a broken title screen, but that's only because there's no LEVEL90.CK1 included and I somehow decided to load the levelpack without copy-and-pasting the aforementioned file from the original Keen 1.
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NEW MISSING DOWNLOADS
I added Keen Is At It Again! and Prelude to the list, with their respective download links. Also, I replaced the Flash Keen .swf link with a link to the
Internet Archive page, which has download links for the all the files needed to play (look at the right, there's a couple by "SHOW ALL"). Just having the .swf file wouldn't be enough since Flash Keen requires .dat files that serve as the levels. This may be why Ruffle couldn't load Flash Keen in the Wayback Machine. I've added an alternate link for Flash Keen in the fangames page, which links to the game on Flashpoint's server; this is for those who don't want to install or download anything.
OTHER
shikadi changed the level count in the Simulator Keen page from 99 to 10, saying that "10 levels are generated. Stating 99 makes no sense." Since he's the author of the mod, should we accordingly change the level count on the Vorticon Mods page (and rewrite a couple notes about the levels in the mod's page)?
Pandakeen wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 16:05
Is it possible to have a mod appear in more than one screenshot list? I think there should be a "Source code mods" list, and Atroxian Realm for example could appear in both "Keen 4 mods" and "Source code mods".
I'm sure that's possible, although it might require a little bit of mangling with the code behind the mod infobox and mod lists. I'm not so sure if a "Source code mods" list would be necessary, though, unless people were to use a new Keen source code that isn't tied to a specific game. Right now, a source code mod can be very different from the original games, but it still starts with the source code for a certain game, much like how a patched mod can have little in common with its base game. (Again, there's Lemm's CKSRCMOD, but it's like a stripped down Keen 4.)
At the same time, however...
Pandakeen wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 16:05
Also, Netkeen should be considered a source code mod.
Technically Netkeen is still a fangame, but I think that's a bit confusing. Fangames around here seem to mean, more or less, "an unofficial Keen game that isn't derived from code from the original games, be it patching, reverse-engineering or source code", so it probably wouldn't hurt to drop the fangame label.
You make some really good points here. I can see how NetKeen could be considered a source code mod; I wonder what do other people think of that. It could be considered a Keen 5 mod, since episode 5 is the default and appears to be the base (e.g. I believe all characters do that "surfing" pose when standing on a Goplat, regardless of the episode), but that might be weird when graphics and music from other episodes are used.
However, I think we should draw a line somewhere because if NetKeen gets labelled a mod, then what about "fangames" that are ports of the official games to different platforms? CKGBA, for instance, is built off of the reconstructed Keen 4 source code, so is it a Keen 4 mod? In that case, I'm starting to wonder if there should be a dedicated list of ports; it could be useful for those who want to play Keen in other platforms (this hypothetical list would include Commander Genius, that
Keen 4 port to Tandy, and maybe even the CGA composite mods).
Pandakeen wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 16:05
Regarding the issue of notability on KeenWiki (skin mods, demos/betas, etc): I think while there should be some notability guidelines, it's mainly a problem because KeenWiki is trying to fill two niches at once: An info resource and a download resource. There should still be a place where you can put stuff that doesn't need an article but is still worth keeping online, and there isn't one at the moment.
Beyond the Pogo was perfect for this. I think the best solution to this problem would be to start a spiritual successor to this (and share the name as well, because it works). I'll have to start a new thread about this idea sometime soon, because I have a
lot of ideas regarding this, well outside the scope of this thread.
Great points! Looking back, I don't think I've ever put enough deep thought in what KeenWiki is trying to do. I was mainly focused on mods and fangames, creating pages for them and making sure such pages have enough info to be helpful and informative. KeenWiki might not need an article for every skin mod, but there could a page that lists all of the skin mods, kinda like what Benvolio once suggested. However, a spiritual successor to Beyond the Pogo might work. It would give things like demos a place, as well as stuff that might not have a place on KeenWiki such as screensavers, films (there's an article for the Shadowlands animated series, but nothing else), desktop themes, fanart, etc. Plus, people could leave comments and reviews for a download, which is something that you can't really do on KeenWiki aside from a bare star rating system that I'm not sure if people even notice. I'd love to see your ideas!
EDIT: Just gonna ping Nisaba to remind her of the missing downloads:
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