Foray in the Forest

[Gigaman94]

I've completed the game, seen different endings, discovered a handful of secrets. Curious about the super secret of secrets, but will probably get there once...now, in the next replay, the goal will be the perfect score.

I personally think all the work you've put into this mod would make Tom Hall himself delighted. Keep on source modding!

A little hint on getting that extra life in Skov af Søvngængere, please?
(between two Gretentas)

[Nisaba]

I love your way of thinking and how you fill in the gaps. That's the beauty of the internet, isn't it? I can be everything you want me to be. I really like that! And being a mysterious hippie coach is such a neat take. brings a lil heartwarming smile to my face!

I've completed the game, seen different endings, discovered a handful of secrets. Curious about the super secret of secrets, but will probably get there once...now, in the next replay, the goal will be the perfect score.

I'm glad to hear that the game has so much replay value for you! And since you've already played diligently and discovered different endings, you must be quite familiar with the game. Feel free to share the parts you enjoy and those that might be a bit frustrating. We're currently working on an update, and any feedback we receive can still be taken into account.

By the way, there will be a bunch of extra mini-bonus levels to discover in the new update! And I love them all. Definitely a thing to look forward to.

A little hint on getting that extra life in Skov af Søvngængere, please?
(between two Gretentas)

Now, there’s a sneaky trick to it. Remember: the theme of the entire level is about finding hidden things: hidden page, hidden key, hidden keyholder, hidden... well, there's something else well hidden... Good luck with your search and have fun exploring! And please don't hesitate to poke me if you need more specific hints!

[Gigaman94]

I'm glad to hear that the game has so much replay value for you! And since you've already played diligently and discovered different endings, you must be quite familiar with the game. Feel free to share the parts you enjoy and those that might be a bit frustrating. We're currently working on an update, and any feedback we receive can still be taken into account.

I'm a collectionist. Always have been ever since I've got to know games created by id Software. So for me, the item detector was the number one feature that made me enjoy every bit of it.
I find the Fungus Amongus, the Zibblinx, the Atomic Kitten and the Mummy particularly amusing.
Frustrating things: the Levars, particularly their ability to throw their... at you from any angle. This I find a bit unfair, especially when you're climbing a pole and you have nowhere to run from their projectiles.

By the way, there will be a bunch of extra mini-bonus levels to discover in the new update! And I love them all. Definitely a thing to look forward to.

Now, there’s a sneaky trick to it. Remember: the theme of the entire level is about finding hidden things: hidden page, hidden key, hidden keyholder, hidden... well, there's something else well hidden... Good luck with your search and have fun exploring! And please don't hesitate to poke me if you need more specific hints!

That's a nice feature! I would like to point out something, so I think I'll connect it to these. We talked about the Lost Mine's secret areas earlier as well. In my opinion, there should be more indicators for each and every secret. Like the one in the Skov, and for another example, the Slugidarium's secret area (the sign is brilliant - I could see a twinkling invisible platform in the vicinity as well => an indicator), and now also for these new mini-levels, etc.
I appreciate your kind offer to help btw, maybe I will "poke" you sometime later.

And one more thing, my completionist soul says it: in the game, there are levels that cannot be accessed from the world map but through another level only. This is the case with the Magic Wonderland and Le TARDIS. These levels contain points that need to be collected for the perfect score. So if you want the 1 M points and miss the secrets, then you have to restart not just from an earlier save file, but possibly the entire game itself, depending on your progress. I know that in the hints you encourage to use at least two save files, but I believe it should be made clear to every player that "if you aim for the perfect score, you need to discover nearly every secret - some of them, you get only one chance to find if you don't save your game (at key moments)."
Something like that should be added to the HINTS.EXE so everyone can be aware.

Thanks!

[Nisaba]

Thanks for your feedback!
The dev team is thrilled that the item detector is being so well received and seems to enrich the gameplay. It was a gamble to implement this mechanic, as of how many new feature the average players might accept. but it appears to be paying off well and seems to balance out a few other rather punishing features that we have implemented.

I'll keep an eye on the Levar. Some changes in level design have already been made in that respect.
Also appreciate your hint regarding needed secret indicators. Let's see what can be done without spoiling the fun to explore thoroughly.
I think we found a simple, yet effective way to address the TARDIS issue. I'm curious to hear, how you'll like it when the next update is up and ready.

here is a more specific hint on how to collect that extra life in the Sleepwalker's Forest:
as long as you can see those thorny vines, you are in the right spot. But maybe you got into the wrong taxi? So, why not take the scenic route, in a place where wood meets the world, but not where the leaves whisper.

Haha! that sounds even more confusing, doesn't it. Let's see if it clicks for you.

[Gigaman94]

Looking forward to seeing the new stuff! I'll be ready to give some feedback.

About the hint: sorry, it didn't click...I cannot imagine any different route down there. Or any way to access that particular area in a different manner.

[Syllypryde]

Looking forward to seeing the new stuff! I'll be ready to give some feedback.

About the hint: sorry, it didn't click...I cannot imagine any different route down there. Or any way to access that particular area in a different manner.

Like Ra's Al Ghul said to Batman, "You need to be mindful of your surroundings. "

..........here is a more specific hint on how to collect that extra life in the Sleepwalker's Forest:
as long as you can see those thorny vines, you are in the right spot. But maybe you got into the wrong taxi? So, why not take the scenic route, in a place where wood meets the world, but not where the leaves whisper.

Haha! that sounds even more confusing, doesn't it. Let's see if it clicks for you.

When you get into the wrong taxi you get swallowed by the Gretenta. Is there another taxi?

.........Now, there’s a sneaky trick to it. Remember: the theme of the entire level is about finding hidden things: hidden page, hidden key, hidden keyholder, hidden... well, there's something else well hidden... Good luck with your search and have fun exploring! And please don't hesitate to poke me if you need more specific hints!

Both hints from Nisaba I just quoted tell you how. Be mindful of your surroundings.

I think we found a simple, yet effective way to address the TARDIS issue. I'm curious to hear, how you'll like it when the next update is up and ready.........

What issue is that? That the player has to actually think and figure things out for themselves? I seriously doubt that most Keeners in this community found the secret levels or other easter eggs in the original games or other mods on their first plays. So why is it somehow wrong if you don't find the path to Le Tardis on your first play? Nearly all of the hints that are needed to find all the secrets and easter eggs are hidden in various stages of the game. In fact, some of these hints are revealed in the various alternate endings, meaning several secrets and easter eggs won't be revealed to you until after you've already completed the game at least once. Lord forbid you might actually get to play the game again, oh the horror!

Plus it sounds to me like another "Not being mindful of your surroundings" scenario. I'm sure most of us saw the Doctor Who Phonebooth on the title screen and seriously thought to ourselves "That can't be a coincidence" when we saw that same phonebooth located in The Magic Wonderland. Many players might have been thinking, "How is it possible to drop down between those "white worms" without dying and make it to the phonebooth?" Any Keener who has played enough mods have seen several mod creators set up a design in their levels where Keen has to jump into or fall into a tight spot that is near impossible to do without dying via a normal timed jump or fall. At some point most of us have figured out using a position in the ceiling or a position in the wall allows us to drop down between the hazards every single time without dying. The "Le Tardis issue" is no exception here.

Most of us that have been playing video games for quite some time have come across games where the creator of the game punishes the player for cheating, sometimes even punishes or makes fun of the player for playing on the easiest difficulty. So when I hit a cheat code in FITF and instead of my difficulty saying easy, normal or hard, it said CHEATER! I knew then and there the game was going to somehow punish me for cheating. Coincidently I was in CHEATER! mode when I got to the phonebooth for the very first time and wasn't surprised at all when nothing happened. I had to revert back to a previous save before I hit the cheat code, go to the phonebooth a second time and viola!

.........And one more thing, my completionist soul says it: in the game, there are levels that cannot be accessed from the world map but through another level only. This is the case with the Magic Wonderland and Le TARDIS. These levels contain points that need to be collected for the perfect score. So if you want the 1 M points and miss the secrets, then you have to restart not just from an earlier save file, but possibly the entire game itself, depending on your progress. I know that in the hints you encourage to use at least two save files, but I believe it should be made clear to every player that "if you aim for the perfect score, you need to discover nearly every secret - some of them, you get only one chance to find if you don't save your game (at key moments)."
Something like that should be added to the HINTS.EXE so everyone can be aware.

Thanks!

One thing I will agree on it is unfair when the creator sets it up so it is impossible to complete the game unless you find something that is hidden. You can't find it, you can't win the game. It is unfair. However in FITF it is not required to get a perfect score to complete the game. So you have to become a better explorer to find all the available points. This game does award you for exploration. That is probably the main theme of the game: exploration. The main objective of the game is to find all of Keen 's stolen plushies. Even that is not required to complete the game.

The multiple endings allow the player to play whichever way they choose. Are you a completionist? You get an ending. Are you a speed runner? You get an ending. You want to just play the required levels only and complete the game with a minimum amount of points? You get an ending. Did you cheat? You get an ending. Do you suck so bad at the game that you keep getting one game over after another? You get an ending. Do you like to manipulate how you play and how you collect items hoping you might trigger a different ending? You get alternative endings. Finally, if you were a player who wanted to win a physical copy of the game (which I believe the contest is long over), you had to find that special ending. The beauty of this game is not only exploration, and playing how you want to play, the game has ingenious replay value.

Since I was one of the playtesters one of the tasks I was given by Nisaba was to complete all 3 difficulties and report to her any issues with the difficulty. I told her easy and normal were balanced well. But I did also tell her that hard needed to be harder. I think most Keeners have noticed by now that the "47" levels this game has are just easy, normal or hard variations of the same levels. The reason I told her hard needed to be harder is that several levels didn't have a hard version of the level. So in many aspects normal and hard are the same difficulty. It's her decision obviously, but I had agreed with her later that easy needs to be easier, normal is fine where it is and hard needs to be harder. I guess the answer to hard being harder was the added expert level.

I know I just went off on a tangent here, a little off topic from the quotes I was responding to, but I thought would add some extra insight.

[Gigaman94]

I honestly believe your insights will continue to be appreciated by the dev team. As you've thoroughly detailed, you're an important person to this project. :)

Some things are easy to solve, some are not, and I'm sorry to realize that you think I'm "not being mindful to" my "surroundings". That unfortunately didn't help me find the solution in this case, so I would be delighted if you gave me something really specific and unambiguous. By "taxi", were you referring to a hidden go-plat that brings you to that extra life? If so, where is it, how do you trigger it? (Feel free to PM me if you don't want to spoil it here. :)

I have to agree with you going off on a tangent here, because the idea of replaying the game or the necessity of hunting secrets was never the point to begin with. My insight was about a specific goal (= the perfect score), aiming to give some extra help for future players who have just loaded the mod for the first time.

[Syllypryde]

......Some things are easy to solve, some are not, and I'm sorry to realize that you think I'm "not being mindful to" my "surroundings". That unfortunately didn't help me find the solution in this case, so I would be delighted if you gave me something really specific and unambiguous. By "taxi", were you referring to a hidden go-plat that brings you to that extra life? If so, where is it, how do you trigger it? (Feel free to PM me if you don't want to spoil it here. .........

Where is it? This is exactly what I mean about not being mindful of your surroundings. Neither Nisaba or I ever said that the "other taxi" was hidden. You made that assumption. When you go down to that bottom right corner there are clearly 2 goplats down there. The 2nd goplat is slightly lower to the ground, meaning it just might be low enough to get under the Gretenta. What is actually hidden is the means to get the taxi to go where you want it to. In your experience with Keen games what tool is usually necessary in order to get a goplat to move, increase the distance it moves or change its direction?

.........I have to agree with you going off on a tangent here, because the idea of replaying the game or the necessity of hunting secrets was never the point to begin with. My insight was about a specific goal (= the perfect score), aiming to give some extra help for future players who have just loaded the mod for the first time.

I could be wrong, but what it sounds like to me is you want Nisaba to spell everything out for the player rather than figure things out for themselves. I realize sometimes people play video games in order to shut their minds off and just have some silly fun, but I also don't think it is honestly too much to ask for the player to do some actual thinking, brainstorming and use creative solutions in order to solve and complete levels and find secrets. As you probably already noticed many of us in the community who have already completed most of these games have no problem offering extra hints when you get stuck. In the end FITF is Nisaba's pride and joy and if she chooses to offer more hints or reveals in the next update that is totally up to her.

[The_Guy222]

Thanks for your interested questions!

And then there’s a personal preference that definitely influences my work. I’m one of the few who are glad there isn’t an official Commander Keen continuation. Sure, the desire is strong, but nothing will ever be as good as the imagination of that wish itself.
For TV series, for example, I strictly stop watching after the second season. I firmly believe that the story has been fully told within that framework, and everything after that can only feel watered down or recycled, just subject to commercial reuse. It’s definitely a debatable stance, but you asked for my perspective. Does that mean there won’t be a continuation of Foray in the Forest? Only the Vool will know...

Great reply!

You might love the TV series, Andor. They did it all within two seasons. [And a movie that takes place immediately afterwards].

[DoomJedi]

Andor is an amazing series. Top notch

[Gigaman94]

Based on this:

Now, there’s a sneaky trick to it. Remember: the theme of the entire level is about finding hidden things: hidden page, hidden key, hidden keyholder, hidden... well, there's something else well hidden...

yes, I did make an assumption, because if something's well hidden, then I wouldn't search for it in plain sight. So for me, this hint was misleading. Naturally, it's clear now - the lower goplat has to be manipulated so it goes all the way to the left. Right now, I have no idea when/what order the different switches (especially E and F) should be used, but I'll work on it.

For the rest: yes, you are wrong. If you load the HINTS.EXE, there are already a number of things spelt out for the player. It's still not everything. Adding one more hint, however obscure it is, would still not make it everything. Bringing the concept of "everything" in the discussion is a totally unnecessary exaggeration. Of course you wouldn't "spell out everything", that's pointless and actually impossible.
About community members: I didn't notice it, Nisaba and you gave me extra hints, but based on posts I read here, my impression is that you do seem to have a problem with that (while Nisaba doesn't); maybe next time, be more short and to the point and cut the preaching, please?
Yeah, thanks for the help btw.
There's also no need to indicate Nisaba's role - it's obvious. I was asked to give a feedback by her, I did so, made a suggestion, and then the rest is not up to me anymore.

I'm done with this topic until the next update arrives.

[Syllypryde]

Based on this:

Now, there’s a sneaky trick to it. Remember: the theme of the entire level is about finding hidden things: hidden page, hidden key, hidden keyholder, hidden... well, there's something else well hidden...

yes, I did make an assumption, because if something's well hidden, then I wouldn't search for it in plain sight. So for me, this hint was misleading. Naturally, it's clear now - the lower goplat has to be manipulated so it goes all the way to the left. Right now, I have no idea when/what order the different switches (especially E and F) should be used, but I'll work on it.

There is no E-F switch combination. The means to change the direction of the 2nd goplat is what's hidden

When accusing you of making an assumption, I hypocritically made an assumption of my own. I run into gamers all the time that don't want to be challenged. They expect to blow through the game and if they can't, the game is "too hard", the game sucks and the creator is a bastard. These types of players want things both ways. They want to be rewarded for good gameplay and finding secrets (which they absolutely should!), yet scream it's unfair when they are punished for sloppy gameplay or misteps. It was never my intention to make that assumption on you. So for that I apologize.

For the rest: yes, you are wrong. If you load the HINTS.EXE, there are already a number of things spelt out for the player. It's still not everything. Adding one more hint, however obscure it is, would still not make it everything. Bringing the concept of "everything" in the discussion is a totally unnecessary exaggeration. Of course you wouldn't "spell out everything", that's pointless and actually impossible.

When I said "everything" spelled out I did not mean it literally. I'm not going to pretend I've never asked for help before. Several members can collaborate that, even Nissba. In fact, she gave me hints on the same area you asked about. This was when I was playtesting pre-release. She gave me the same 2 hints, word for word.

About community members: I didn't notice it, Nisaba and you gave me extra hints, but based on posts I read here, my impression is that you do seem to have a problem with that (while Nisaba doesn't); maybe next time, be more short and to the point and cut the preaching, please?

If I had a problem with giving hints I wouldn't do it at all. I'm not attempting to pretend I'm a superior player . I'm a medium player at best. Most of the more established players in the community are better than I am. Perseverance is what gets me through games, and helps me discover secrets, sometimes accidentally. Please don't let these previous posts discourage you from asking questions.

[Nisaba]

I’m absolutely thrilled by the passion with which certain features are being discussed!

Don’t worry, my dear friends. The changes being made for the upcoming update will definitely not turn the game into a Sierra-style adventure with soft locks and whatnot, nor will it become a Gen-Z only game with zero challenges. I’m just exaggerating a little, of course.

The improvements around the TARDIS are addressing issues I’ve identified while carefully observing let's plays. Of course, I won’t touch the challenge itself, but I’ll place indicators that will give diligent little collector bees a good hint that there’s still hidden treasure to find. You’ll still need to think a bit outside the box, but we’re aiming to lighten the gatekeeping so everyone can have a bit more fun!

Now, about cheating. I don’t think I’ve ever played any of the Keen games without cheats. At least not for the first 100 times! Then I turned 9 and felt very grown-up, so I dusted ye good ol' floppies and tried it without cheats. After all, I knew my way around the environment. Man, was that exciting!

In FitF, of course, you can cheat! We intentionally kept that function in, first and foremost as a helpful feature to bypass the designer's blunders! Cheating in this game just leads to different outcomes. In a sense it's more to be understood as something you can unlock. I'm still playing with the idea of adding a level that can be only visited, if cheat mode is on... And I must say, I find the cheating ending to be one of the most hilarious. I definitely had tears in my eyes when I saw “it” for the very first time...

By the way, there will be a series of additional tough level designs for the hard mode. Freshly squeezed, I believe 15 or 20 levels have been revamped, along with even more level layouts specifically added for the hard difficulty. So for you challenge lovers out there, there’s plenty to sink your teeth into, and for those who prefer a gentler experience, rest assured that more cotton balls have been distributed in easy mode as well!

[Syllypryde]

.........By the way, there will be a series of additional tough level designs for the hard mode. Freshly squeezed, I believe 15 or 20 levels have been revamped, along with even more level layouts specifically added for the hard difficulty. So for you challenge lovers out there, there’s plenty to sink your teeth into, and for those who prefer a gentler experience, rest assured that more cotton balls have been distributed in easy mode as well!

[RogerWilco]

Just finished playing through this mod! Nothing particularly constructive to say but a) Thanks for making it! b) Wow the gameplay is very rich and polished! c) Tons of fun
Have a good one