I made a mod - Keen episode 59: Underworld Ultimate!

Bernie · Post by **Bernie** » Thu May 08, 2014 11:50

Back on topic, I also am not quite sure that I understand how to use the potions.

you just pick up certain combinations of them to automatically get stuff. its sorta like a crafting system. so its not clear in the F1 section?

Plasma Captain · Post by **Plasma Captain** » Thu May 08, 2014 15:21

Ohhh, it's automatic. Okay. I'm fairly certain that I was not alone in thinking that I had to do something in order to use them up. Though, I guess that explains why a key exists to clear the potions from one's inventory...

CapnClever · Post by **CapnClever** » Thu May 08, 2014 15:21

Bernie wrote:
Plasma Captain wrote:Back on topic, I also am not quite sure that I understand how to use the potions.
you just pick up certain combinations of them to automatically get stuff. its sorta like a crafting system. so its not clear in the F1 section?

Once I figured out that the rule for using potions is "you must be carrying exactly and only the potions in the recipe", the F1 help's text makes sense. But let me say that's a pretty heavy restriction, especially since the only recipes I know of require ten potions of a specific type. (I imagine this is the point of being able to clear your potion inventory, but it's not hard to accidentally collect potions when you're just exploring.) If what I said is not the rule, then I guess it could be buggy instead: I'll try to experiment more with different amounts and stuff.

One thing I learned is that carrying 15 potions of all three types appears to wipe all potions from your inventory. It might've done something like give points but I didn't notice a difference at the time.

Roobar · Post by **Roobar** » Thu May 08, 2014 18:05

I still don't get it. If you have less than 10 potions and push backspace, you lost them and if you have more than 10 and press backspace, you get 1up?

CapnClever · Post by **CapnClever** » Thu May 08, 2014 19:07

wiivn wrote:I still don't get it. If you have less than 10 potions and push backspace, you lost them and if you have more than 10 and press backspace, you get 1up?

The potion-clearing button only erases potions: it has nothing to do with finishing recipes (except that you need specific amounts and clearing can fix mistakes). But let's say you want the 1UP recipe, which costs 10 white potions (I don't mind spoiling this because it's on the first map). You have to collect 10 white potions and no other potions for this recipe: when you pick up the tenth white potion, you get a life and the potions are consumed.

All in all I think it could be done better, though I don't exactly know how. Would it be possible to press a button to "start mixing" and then have three dialogs that ask for how many of each type of potion? Closest thing I can think of given the parts available.

Gridlock · Post by **Gridlock** » Thu May 08, 2014 22:10

I was a little confused by the potion making at first, but it made sense the longer I played. I never really discovered many recipes, but I thought it was a brilliant concept. Like many other things in the game, I like that the recipes weren't all blatantly obvious; you actually got to discover them as you played the game. In general, that's one of the things I like the most about this mod. It presents a lot of clever challenges but respects you enough to let you figure it out. Though occasionally I was unable to solve a level without cheating (seriously, how do you beat Cave of Illusions near the end?), I found it very refreshing to figure things out on my own, especially since the game was generally very well designed. I especially enjoyed the Cave of Secrets, although I was unable to destroy the crate by shooting it, and I didn't even realize you could until somebody posted here. Still, it was remarkably fun finding all the destructable walls--reminded me a little of Metroid.

Graphically, this game is astounding. Seriously, I'm blown away by how detailed and complex the game environments are. I feel like this makes the graphics in pretty much every other Keen mod, including my own, look subpar. The more 3-D nature of the final levels was especially incredible, although at times the perspective was confusing as to what was and wasn't a platform.

I was blown away at just how innovative some of the ideas here were, and at times I found myself wondering just how you pulled off some of these tricks. It's just astounding the ideas you managed to pull off like the chests, the expanded use of keygems, the new world map features, and the one-directional platforms moved by a switch. And the enemy designs are equally impressive. I can't even tell what original enemy most of these ones were modeled after.

My biggest complaint is pretty much the same as in Ruins of Roib. The updated Keen sprite, while neat to look at, is much more awkward to control than the original sprite, and it led to some clunky platforming and hit detection. Also, while the music tracks were decent, none of them really stood out to me in the end.

I found the difficulty much more manageable in this game than Ruins of Roib. What really frusterated me about Roib was that there were a lot of sections with aggravating enemies or tile hazards that made the game nearly unplayable in spots. That has been toned back a lot here, thankfully. I only really had trouble with a few of the last levels, especially with the lazers. There's one section that nearly impossible because you have to rise up past two lazers, and avoiding the upper one is nearly impossible. Here some other situations that gave me some problems:

These lazers are almost impossible to get past. Plus the collision detection up top can sometimes kill you when you are dropping down.

This guy got stuck here after I shot him down from an upper platforming, making it impossible for me to get up to this platform without cheating.

This was super hard as well.

The boss battle was neat too, although it took a while to figure out how to beat and was pretty simple once I figured it out.

I just can't believe you made this in like one freaking year. It's incredible for a game made so quickly, and you must be immensely talented at modding. I mean, I've been working on a mod for four years now and it's nowhere near as graphically grandiose as this is. Call it a waste of time or not, but your work is some of the best, most innovative modding I've ever seen.

Bernie · Post by **Bernie** » Fri May 09, 2014 15:43

hey thanks a lot gridlock for those kind words

sorry im still kinda taking a break from this thing and i'll go through the issues one by one, eventually.

Bubbatom · Post by **Bubbatom** » Sat May 10, 2014 6:33

I haven't played much just yet, but I like it!

I too am surprised that this was pulled off in under a year! You must have a tonne of time up your sleeve!

You really will have to teach me how to complete visually beautiful graphics in such a small amount of time! I'm tired of slaving over ms paint for hours just to create a few tiles.

Anyway, I better get back to playing!

lemm · Post by **lemm** » Sat May 10, 2014 19:53

Are the potion recipes hidden in secret areas of the map? Or do you just have to hope you'll get the right combination?

Benvolio · Post by **Benvolio** » Sun May 11, 2014 21:33

This is fantastic stuff, Bernie. Really beautiful, graphically, musically and gameplay-wise - you really know how to achieve quality in all three spheres. I don't know what more to say, especially as I haven't read this thread (it appears quite spoiler-heavy) but this mod has definitely brightened up my weekend!

KeenRush wrote: I'm made sick by how garging great work it is

It gives me an indescribable feeling, somewhere between sickness and melancholy. I don't know why. It definitely doesn't have anything to do with feelings of inferiority that I might have - for I have long-since come to terms with these. It's partially the atmosphere of the game, I would suspect - garg that music is unbelievable. I think it's the thought that this product of a niche hobby, appreciated by only about 30 people, is actually better on all levels than virtually anything that anyone has paid 60 euro or equivalent for at GameStop or equivalent. I just feel so excited to be able to play this.

I would love to hear Spleen's opinion on this mod.

Bernie · Post by **Bernie** » Mon May 12, 2014 4:34

lemm wrote:Are the potion recipes hidden in secret areas of the map? Or do you just have to hope you'll get the right combination?

there are only 3 recipes in areas of certain levels (in levels 1,2 and 7) but i thought about putting more. and yes, experimenting with different combinations was part of my plan

or just randomly picking up the potions and see what pops out. but i dunno how much people would find that fun.

Benvolio wrote:It gives me an indescribable feeling, somewhere between sickness and melancholy

well dont feel too bad

i actually took making this thing kinda seriously, personally. and in the F1 section in the 'about mod' area, i kinda make a half-assed appeal for work

i could always get some sort of gaming job with doing this stuff. who knows.

I too am surprised that this was pulled off in under a year!

i actually planned to make this thign in just a few months. so for me this mod took too long

but then im always setting impossible goals for myself.

(I imagine this is the point of being able to clear your potion inventory, but it's not hard to accidentally collect potions when you're just exploring.)

yeah i was worried about that :/ and i consciously put potions in spots where you could have a choise whether to pick it up or not (as opposed to, say, have a potion in a low hanging passageway where you had to pick it up whether you wanted to or not). i may have screwed the pooch on that in a few cercumstances but its mostly solid.

One thing I learned is that carrying 15 potions of all three types appears to wipe all potions from your inventory. It might've done something like give points but I didn't notice a difference at the time

yeah i made it simply clear all potions when you reach 15 (max) for all of them. i just did that incase the player was especially retarded and didn't read the signs in level 1 and they don't know about using the backspace key. so atleast it'll clear them when they reach the limit, so they can pick up potions still. but i dunno. what do you think?

Post by **Levellass** » Mon May 12, 2014 6:25

I don't think so; you can max out 2 potions while still not having enough of a third. I think this would be a good 'introductory recipe' (See below.)

Plasma Captain wrote:Ohhh, it's automatic. Okay. I'm fairly certain that I was not alone in thinking that I had to do something in order to use them up. Though, I guess that explains why a key exists to clear the potions from one's inventory...

This is a big issue a big issue indeed. Players should be told directly if they have combinations of potions they can do stuff. In fact it might be good to give them a simple example recipe (15 of each gives you 5'000 points?) then tell them there are other combinations they can try.

Issues:

This happens a total of 42 times (detected so far) in your mod. Not identically, but a similar kind of thing, Keen walking or jumping into solid ground has weird not foregrounded bits:

These guys fall down occasionally, probably a feature rather than a bug:

This guy gets stuck and twitches back and forth:

Benvolio · Post by **Benvolio** » Mon May 12, 2014 21:38

CapnClever wrote:Game crashes when saving/loading while Keen's standing on one of those giant gears in The Understream. Loading causes a smaller version of the level entrance box to show up, then the game hangs (and sometimes crashes DOSBox).

Not many people seem to be reporting this issue. Personally, I saved the game in the Understream (on dry land, quite early on in the level) and now when I "LODE GAIM" it gives me a black screen, and continues playing the menu music. Has this happened to anyone else?

I shall now have to re-commence the game! Which is no bad thing given how good it is. The graphics of the Understream are mindblowing.

Bernie · Post by **Bernie** » Tue May 13, 2014 4:36

In fact it might be good to give them a simple example recipe (15 of each gives you 5'000 points?)

yeah i did that already. in levels 1,2 and 7 theres some recipes written for the player.

but your idea of it making something when you max out all potions sounds intersting.

Players should be told directly if they have combinations of potions they can do stuff

well i just thought it would be kinda fun if people would experiment for themselves. thats what i had to do in games that had crafting stuffs in them anyways. i remember i was once playtesting it, randomly picking up potions, and pop! out came a plush toy

i forgot what its recipe was.

DoomJedi · Post by **DoomJedi** » Tue May 13, 2014 19:01

Only at level 2 - but this is simply out of this world. This is perfection.
This is breathtaking....hard to focus on the game from looking at the scenery, background...this is attack on all senses.

"M" doesn't display well.